About fifteen years ago, I started using bulletin board services online. These were pre-world wide web servers that ran out of people's homes. You would dial up the BBS on your 1200 baud modem and connect to a text-only based site. These sites would provide forums for discussion, information for reading and programs for downloading. Some of the more progressive boards had games you could play online, text only of course.
Way back then, I remember getting into debates with people online in topics of religion and politics. I recall the great frustration in trying to communicate truth and debunk lies in a forum that is just not conducive to discussion. I can't tell you how many times I got in a debate with some misinformed person who was certain that the phrase "separation of church and state" appeared in the U.S. Constitution. I encountered a great deal of hostility from atheists and non-Believers of all kinds as I attempted to enter into a logical exploration of faith, science, the Founding Fathers and the Holy Bible. On a BBS, it was too easy to rabbit trail from one discussion to another, thereby making it far too difficult to make a point that would stick.
Little has changed since then. People are still stubborn, arrogant, ignorant and rude. Today we have the world wide web, which has opened up countless more opportunities for everyone under the sun to spout their opinion on any number of topics. The Internet is all about the free flow of information, but as can be witnessed by the number of people who are supporting John Kerry in this Presidential election, information may be available, but many choose not to acknowledge it.
Since 1999, I have run a site called Dealofday.com. It is an online shopping site that tells people where they can find coupons and bargains for purchases made online.
The site includes a forums section where members can discuss deals they find, freebies they have received and coupons to be clipped, along with discussions of their families, their jobs and whatever else is on their minds. It truly is a community of people who have grown to know each other and care for each other.
Our General Chit Chat board occasionally became filled with religious and political discussion, which some members wanted nothing to do with. Therefore, I started a Religion and Politics forum where these topics could be addressed in a civil manner.
Well, sometimes it is civil and sometimes it gets nasty. But interestingly enough, I have yet to see anyone change their mind based on what is discussed in these forums. Bush diehards and Kerry diehards remain as they were in spite of news or information that might sway the mind. Christians and non-Christians often find themselves at odds. One group says the Bible is true and another says "how dare you tell me how to live my life". It's typical stuff that goes on in every segment of society. We are merely a microcosm of American culture.
Today, I was viewing the boards and I ran across a post from one of our more liberal members. The topic? How religion needs to stay out of government because of the separation of church and state.
No amount of discussion or facts would convince this person that they have no clue where this phrase originated or how it applies to the U.S. government.
And so, I have pulled away from my own boards. I don't think I can enter into one more discussion with a token liberal who repeats the mantra "Bush lied about WMD", in spite of the overwhelming evidence that the whole world thought Saddam had WMDs.
Wide is the road that leads to destruction. Narrow is the path to life, and few find it. There is nothing new under the sun.
It's Del.icio.us!
Furl It!
October 8, 2004 01:27 PM
Yes Yes Yes!! I totally agree, Joel! And by the way I LOVED that quote at the bottom from James Madison. I believe that George Washington has been quoted as saying something quite similar.
October 9, 2004 07:17 AM
WHY ARGUE???? Why not let everyone in this country have their own opinion like the Constitution says. Everyone is created equal!!! This country stands for freedom of religion. That means that all opinions are valid, so long as said opinion does not harm others. It was said here that people who are non-Christians just say "don't tell me how to live my life." It is not always so simple as that. Perhaps we should all just try to accept other belief systems, even if we do not agree with them, for what they are and try to learn from other cultures instead of trying to impose our own point of view. That is why people talk about seperation of chrch and state - so one group's belief systems do not take preedence and be made into law over anothers. Freedom of religion. Period. By the way, the founding fathers were a group of slave owning WHITE MEN who said that everyone is created equal. How hypocritical is that? Let us make America a better place where ALL can be free of persecution of their beliefs.
October 9, 2004 11:31 AM
Robert,
You make a common mistake in the rape abortion issue. You think that aborting the child will somehow make the situation better. What it actually does is COMPOUND the initial wrong with another wrong.
I do NOT wish to minimize the incredible pain and anguish that a mother in these circumstances would need to withstand. However, turning the wrong into a right allows the mother time to heal from the wound and come to love the child, whereas killing the child will haunt the mother forever.
It is NOT the fault of the child that he/she is a product of someone else's sin. Do you think that child when grown would say, "You should have had me killed"? What if YOU were a product of someone else's sin? Should you have been aborted?
Take the argument to its logical conclusion and even the rape exceptions are a leaky boat.
October 9, 2004 04:34 PM
I can agree with what you say - that such a situation is not the child's fault - it is not. But I also see so many chilren that are neglected, abused, and the like that they eventually feel that they should take their own life, or worse, actually succeed in doing so that it is a shame that what they have been dealt by others is so horrible that they feel suicide is the only solution. But it is still a unique situation that should be decided on by only the people involved - NOT LAWMAKERS and a President who only seesot his own viewpoint on what is right. As Kerry said, what we need in this country is EDUCATION about the problem, not condemnation from a religious viewpoint. If kids have access to birth control and family planning and abstinence and a million other forms of education about the problem - they can begin to understand the importance of safe and appropriate procreation. And later down the road fathers may not try to force such things on their children. Bush in office is trying to outlaw all that education. We need EDUCATION about EVERY aspect of a problem - not just to be told " God thinks its wrong".
October 9, 2004 05:35 PM
Joel,
Sorry for jumping in here, but what I got a big kick out of in last night's debate was when John Kerry tried to defend a womans' right to an abortion using the example of the woman who is raped by her own father! Now, PLEASE DO NOT get me wrong here. I DO realize that sick stuff like that actually does happen in some cases of rape. And to any woman out there that this has actually happened to go out my most heartfelt sympathies. But if I were a bettin' man, I'd have to guess that these are EXTREMELY RARE cases. I believe that if fathers raping their daughters and impregnating them was truly a problem running rampant in this country we'd all be hearing an awful lot more about it all over the news! If I could respond directly to John Kerry on that comment I'd say: "Oh please give me a BREAK, John! That was an embarrassingly pathetic example you gave! And certainly a WEAK defense of a sick and immoral act".
October 9, 2004 05:55 PM
Robert,
We don't need God to tell us it is wrong. Science can look inside the womb and clearly point out that the fetus inside the mother is a unique human being with its own DNA. Science has also allowed premature babies to survive as early as FIVE MONTHS along.
Right to life means that the baby has a right to life. Right to choose means irresponsibility in the vast majority of the cases. Liberals like to screech about the rape and incest cases, but if they were honest with themselves they would agree the great majority of abortions are for convenience.
Pro choice individuals are willing accomplices to a slaughter of greater proportions than the holocaust during World War II.
Another thing you fail to see is that abortion actually hurts TWO people at a minimum. Post Abortion Syndrome is as real can be, and more women are coming out to admit the incredible struggles they have had after aborting their babies.
For more information, may I refer you to this site. Take some time to read the stories in the forums. You may find it to be quite eye opening.
http://www.postabortionpain.com
As for legislating abortion, it WAS the law until the activist Supreme Court changed the rules. Interestingly enough, Norma McCorvey (Jane Doe in the case) wishes she could take it all back now.
Lawmakers MUST protect the rights of the unborn when we have murderers stalking the land seeking to kill them.
It's the hard truth, but it is the truth nevertheless. Come over to the right side of the issue Robert. All are welcome. :-)
October 9, 2004 10:11 PM
Well, it appears that I certainly have sparked quite a conversation here. That is actually good, because what I was seeking was an intelligent conversation which it appears has actually started here. If there are no more responses to this that is fine. I just thought I should explain my position a little. I do no particulary agree with abortion, but I feel that each individual must make his or her own choice, and know the consequences of that choice. I see somebody responded that the father/daughter issue is rare. Maybe, but I have known personally three such girls in my lifetime. No, they did not become pregnant, but their fathers did create much pain in them because of their sick actions. One father was even a PREACHER. On Oprah the other day there were stories of girls who such things happened to. I guess I may also be labeled a murder sympathiser here for saying that I hae little sympathy and feel the one woman was justified in killing her father when he tried to force himself on her. She committed murder in self defense. Just a thought, as for abortion being so wrong, why have some pro-lifers actually committed crimes and attempted homicide when they burned down doctor's offices? How novelly Christian. By the way, I do like the fact that you stepped back from the God bit for a second to look at how we here on earth deal with things. The one most difficult issue I have with some of the more Fundamentalist Christians is that they never see things from someone else's side without trying to say that if you don't believe their way you are a horrible sinner and destined for Hell. Some of your comments may have sparked that fire in me because you say things like "sheep being led to slaughter" that seem as if you have no room in your view of what is right that you never try to see things from someone else's eyes, and learn from other people and other cultures. It is nice to see that you can try to look at a topic by using some other form of justification than the Bible. Thanks for the attempt to at least try to understand how somone else thinks instead of shoving scripture down their throats.
October 10, 2004 09:14 AM
Robert,
Joel "stepped down from the God bit?". HARDLY. He simply pointed out that science ALSO backs up the reality here...leaving no other logical reason to be an abortion proponent. As for "how we do things down here on earth".....NOTHING we do down here on earth (especially where HUMAN LIFE is concerned) would be possible at all without God's hand. I believe I speak for approximately 75% of the U.S. population here when I say that. (Yes, this country WAS IN FACT built on a Christian, God-fearing foundation) All are welcome here in the U.S., that is true. Freedom of religion is more of a reality here than anyplace else in the world. But this does not mean that we are a foundation-less country, which is the great myth liberals love to put forth. Because without that myth, their arguments in these areas would almost immediately shrivel up and die.
I just want to say something about our nations' fore-fathers. First of all, they did not ALL own slaves, nor BELIEVE IN slavery. Those that did were part of a vast human tragedy in action. Those WHITE MEN who founded this country that DID own slaves were human...just like you and me. They made mistakes...just like you and me. Slavery was just one of many HUGE mistakes we have made as human beings throughout our history. Slavery however, at least in this country, is a thing of the past. We have evolved. But if you ask me, one of the WORST human failings of our entire history, and one that we have had more than enough time to conclude is terribly wrong and unjust is ABORTION. Yet, it still persists....and many, MANY people in this country STILL BELIEVE it is perfectly alright to murder those unborn babies.
I get irritated when someone tries to dispute our Judeo-Christian foundation in this country and justify their argument by pointing out that some of our founders owned slaves. Slavery was a part of a terribly misguided culture back then. It was a MISTAKE OF COLOSSAL PROPORTIONS. But you don't turn around and use it as an excuse to erase some of the very good those same WHITE MEN did....such as establishing a God-fearing foundation for this nation. That was all good. But we are getting further and further away from that goodness today in the United States. This country (with the help of liberal, activist judges and the ACLU) is sinking deeper and deeper into depravity. And abortion is right at the top of the list. We are heading in the WRONG direction. George W. Bush is trying to take steps to move us back closer to that good part of America. John Kerry has flat-out stated that if elected he will not appoint any judge to the Supreme Court who would be of a mind to overturn Roe vs Wade. On that basis ALONE I cannot vote for John Kerry.
Thanks (again) for letting me get up on the soapbox for a while, Joel. I'll step down now. ;-)
October 10, 2004 11:09 AM
Ahhh - I am glad that the debate continues. I can agree with your point that slavery was not the position of all the founding Fathers. It as an atrocity, certainly, but one at least SOME of the supposed greatest leaders in this nation participated in. As far a Godliness goes, sure a good portion of this country is Judaeo-Christian, but what about the BILLIONS of other people on this planet who do not believe in your God. They ae NOT NOT NOT all wrong and misguided. They have other cultures and belief systems that anyone not of their culture must try to RESPECT and UNDERSTAND. As far as abortion goes, I have stated that I am not particularly in favor of such a thing, but I see the need for exceptions to the rule based on one's personal choice and knowledge of the consequences of that choice. I know that it is a horrible and devastating choice to have to make, but do you really think it is that easy for a woman to decide she wants an abortion? It is very, very hard, but sometimes it may be WORSE for a child to be born into a horrible family than not born in the first place. We need to clean up family values and start educating parents on better ways of caring for their children before we totally eliminate abortion. With godd EDUCATION, in the end abortion will cease to exist in most cases anyway. I agree that this country has run rampant with drugs, alcohol, and the like and ruins kids lives. But the "SPARE THE ROD, SPOIL THE CHILD" theory from your Bible and a "GOD-FEARING" world has caused children to be ABUSED AND NEGLECTED AND CONTROLLED. "God fearing" in and of itself suggests to me CONTROL - we must FEAR God? Why? That is a crock. Fear is a tool used by evil people to CONTROL others. And many of these parents make their children FEAR them. That is a more heinous crime than abortion. Beating or neglecting the kids you already have. ABUSE is much more harmful than abortion. Which brings me to war. WAR is also more harmful than abortion. If so many people are against abortion, why are they in support of war? Is not he taking of any life for any reason therefore wrong? Tell that to George H.W. He would just get angry and say that "I am justified in going to war in Iraq." If killing infants is wrong, then killing Iraqis is wrong, as well as any war the world has killed people. If abortion is murder and murder is wrong, I guess blowing someone's head off with a machine gun in war is all fine and dandy and does not constitute murder because it is for God and for country. WAR IS WRONG!!! PERIOD!!!
And, for the record, again, I am not fond of abortion, just support personal freedom and personal choice.
Thank again for the opportunity to clash swords here. It has been interesting and educational.
October 10, 2004 09:20 PM
"...but what about the BILLIONS of other people on this planet who do not believe in your God?"
Ummm, excuse me there Robert, but I'm pretty sure we were discussing issues HERE IN THE UNITED STATES...not the ENTIRE planet. But....since you decided to bring the ENTIRE PLANET into this, let me just say that, OBVIOUSLY, billions worldwide practice other beliefs and religions. No great revelation there. Hey Robert...I'll go you one further: there are MILLIONS of people out there in the world who do not even give a damn about the sanctity of HUMAN LIFE period! There is slaughter and genocide happening in parts of this world. Anyway, other countries have their beliefs and cultures....but so does The United States of America! That was my point. If I were ever to decide to move to another country to live, I most certainly WOULD NOT ask them (nor expect them) to modify or amend their own established religious foundation for little ol' me! Nor would I expect them to accommodate MY language. No.....I would FULLY expect that I would have to make the effort to learn to speak THEIR LANGUAGE!! But that is another topic for another day.
Robert, I think we DO respect other peoples religions and beliefs in this country. If we didn't respect others, I don't see how we could maintain the freedom of religion we have in this country. We in the United States have been practicing democracy for a long, long time now...so having the ability to respect other religions and belief systems should really be no great stretch for us. But AGAIN....I do not see how any of that changes the fact that we have an ESTABLISHED faith that this country was founded on. And that faith is CHRISTIANITY...whether you like it or not! (It's a twelve-letter word, not a four letter word)
I just have one other reply to a comment you made in your last post. You say that you "are not particularly in favor of such a thing" but you believe in "exceptions to the rule based on ONES PERSONAL CHOICE???" Well HEYYYYY....what a neat, easy, stressless cop-out that would be, huh??? And why stop there? Why don't we just make murder in general a matter of personal choice too?? I mean (by your reasoning) as long as the murderers were all aware of the consequences of their actions why should any of US interfere with them if that's what they really want to do?? Far be it for any of us to butt our noses into their affairs, right? It's their business if they choose to MURDER an INNOCENT HUMAN BEING. Who are we to tell them they cannot?
Robert, I don't even know you but I am sure you are a decent guy. You seem pretty intelligent as well. But you have terribly, poisonously misguided views on some of these issues. I really hope you will do a bit more soul-searching on these thoughts of yours and do some more thinking about what human lives mean and what they are worth. Best wishes to you.
October 10, 2004 11:16 PM
well, i think this mat be my last post for awhile, since it seems to be becoming pretty crowded with posts here. Let me just say that I do not believe that my thoughts are poisonously misguided, since I feel that the following are horrible problems with the world - ABUSE, FORCED PROCREATION ( I can't say the 3 or 4 letter words for this here ) WAR, INTOLERANCE, DRUGS, ALCOHOL, DOMESTIC ABUSE, RACISM, GENDERISM, MURDER - in most cases, except for self defense, and others. Just because I see abortion in a slightly different light does not make me a monster, it is a difference in degree from other, more significant atrocities that people do to each other every day. If so many people believe so much in the sanctity of life then we should start eliminating abuse, drugs, alcohol, poverty, homelessness, and general disregard for human life to those already living first, before we focus so much on exactly where life starts, at conception or at birth. Many people who choose abortion CARE MORE FOR A CHILD than to bring it into such a horrible world when they know that all they as parents could bring that child was pain. It would never be an easy choice, but somtimes people actually feel that it is a better choice than bringing a child that would be neglected into the world. By the way - I am assuming that we are all men speaking here - if we are not women, we probably cannot even remotely interpret what that choice consists of. I have a fair propostion for this country to examine. Why not take men completely out of the equation? ONLY LET THE WOMEN IN THIS COUNTRY VOTE ON THE ISSUE OF ABORTION? Sound fair? MEN SHOULD NOT BE A PART OF IT!!! That included George H.W. as well. That way nobody can blame him for teh situation. The choice ultimately lies with a woman anyway.
By the way, yes, maybe this country might have been founded in part on Christianity, but that came with its costs as well. THE REAL AMERICANS, the Native Americans, WERE FORCED BY THE WHITE MAN TO ACCEPT CHRISTIANITY and eventually give up many of there customs because the WHITE CHRISTIAN MAN came and forced them to leave their land. Does that sound very respectful of others beief systems?
Anyway, here is aother can of worms, but I can definitely see that we all have a long way to go as a race to finally understand each other. America is only a country. We need to come together with love as a guide to form a HUMAN commonwealth - one where every race and relgion has a say and respect of each other. HUMAN BEINGS are what matter, not AMERICANS. You may look at me as totally nuts for this next statement, but I feel that it makes logically as much sense as the Christian myth or for that matter any other belief on this planet. (As far as that goes, I feel that NO PERSON on this planet can even fathom the REAL truth of the Universe - it is way beyond us to really understand )This next is only a POSSIBILITY, one of many, that could exist - it makes as much sense as a man being rose from the dead and walking on water to me, is that there are many races of beings in this Galaxy and many are tremendously advanced from us. Maybe there is some kind of Galactic union and government that we could be part of, but these beings see as as inferior because we are TOO WARLIKE AND UNCIVILIZED. Perhaps we need to find the best ways possible to try to evolve to the point we we might get a small glimpse of what the REAL TRUTH (if there is one) may be. That can only be accomplished with LOVE of fellow man. How does this relate to abortion? It does in the fact that we need to understand that unless we are placed in a situation of someone else, it is very difficult to advise them on what they should do. Therefore, each person's situation is unique and should be treated as such. We give people trials to make sure that they are 100 percent guilty of murder before they are sentenced. Perhaps each abortion case should be viewed as a seperate case and tried accordingly - that would also provide exceptions while also preventing people to use such a thing because they are too lazy to be EDUCATED about better ways. It would also allow aborion to be A LAST RESORT.
Anyway, I had an interesting debate and learned much. I did not expect nor want to change anyone's mind here, so it was interesting to hear other points of view. Let me just say that I know that I am not some sort of monster, nor am I allowing the destruction of our way of life by seeing a different side of abortion and same gender love, regardless of how any of you may feel I am also not a horrible and misguided person because I do not believe in your God. In fact, I will continue to do my best to help humanity throughout the rest of my life, in my own unique way and applaud those of you tht do the same.
October 11, 2004 11:27 PM
Forgive me for painting with a broad brush here, but you pro-abortion folks are all the same. You all refer to the same things when putting forth your argument for abortion: the RARE and EXTREME cases! Always the ugliest scenarios in order to score "emotional" points for an otherwise pathetic argument in supporting the snuffing out of life. You guys love to talk only about the cases such as rape and incest. Now...do I think cases like these should be handled differently given the extreme and inhumane circumstances that brought about those pregnancies? ABSOLUTELY I DO! But the answer (even in those cases) is STILL NOT ABORTION! Not when we have other means through which those babies can be born, and thus be given the right to live out their lives. Funny how you pro-aborters never talk about the ADOPTION OPTION.
You talked about several terrible, ugly things humans do to each other...you listed them above. Well, you wanna hear something really UGLY? A good portion of aborted human lives each year (YES, I use the term "human" since that is what they would have become had they been unfettered) are the result of reckless, unprotected, premarital, carefree intercourse with no considerations as to the possible consequences of their actions! That is the sad, sad truth! They just don't worry about it. Then WHAMMO!!! Someone gets pregnant! And then it becomes: "Ohhh nooooo....I can't have a baby now....this will totally disrupt my whole life!! I didn't plan on this!! I'm not prepared!! What am I gonna do??"....and then it deteriorates into: "Well I'm NOT having this baby...there's NO WAY!" And all the while, the whole internal conversation is revolving around one thing and one thing only: ME. No thoughts about the human life that has been initiated. No thoughts as to whether it will be a boy or a girl. Nobody gives any thought to the tremendous responsibility they must now accept or the amazing GIFT it is to say that you brought a life into this world! But for me, the most tragic part in all of this is my opinion that these people don't consider God one little bit while going through this thought process leading up to the abortion. I believe that if more of these people DID stop to consider what God thinks about this new life, less of them would have abortions.
I'm sorry Robert, but I believe that on the abortion issue you are misguided. Nobody is calling you a monster though....I don't know where you got that. I certainly never said it. As a matter of fact, I recall saying that I was sure you are a decent and intelligent guy. You are articulate and polite as well. More polite than myself, I'll admit.
But this topic is too important to get wrong. And as a Christian, I believe my God wants me to keep trying to make the correct argument and possibly change minds. Many people have been led down the wrong path when it comes to abortion. Millions think of it as a womens liberation issue...period. Many don't even give it that much pondering at all. Many just wanna have their cake and eat it too. Sorry....it just doesn't work that way. God decides when a human life enters this world....not us.
Well I may have over-stayed my welcome on this post so I'm signing off of this one now. Thanks for the opportunity for another thought provoking and important debate Joel. Believe it or not, I'm not a blogger per se....this is the only such site I visit or post messages at. I just like it here, what can I say? ;-)
January 14, 2005 12:50 PM
"The gift it is to be able to say you brought a life into the world"?
If we have 6 400 000 000 lives, why have 6 400 000 001?
There is this girl I know of. She was raped on two occasions while 17 years old. One was a gang rape. I think she's 18 now. She's on birth control pills. She has enough problems in her life as it is WITHOUT GETTING PREGNANT.
January 14, 2005 11:50 PM
Juuitchan, there is no doubt that this poor girl is going to have major issues to deal with. However, while getting pregnant and having a baby is a difficult thing to deal with, I would say that having an abortion would COMPOUND the problem. If she has an abortion, she will have created a whole new problem that will stay with her for a lifetime.