Branding is more than just getting your logo right and coming up with a catchy slogan for your company. While these things are obviously very important, branding can also include things like the outward appearance of you or your employees, and how you comport yourself in all the various details of business dealings. The following story is something that actually happened to me, and proves the saying that truth is stranger than fiction. In retrospect, I am glad that it happened, because I think it contains an important lesson on how branding must extend to your business dealings.
I was introduced to a gentleman who wanted to have lunch and speak to me about corporate coaching. He knew that we are in the process of growing our business, and he was in the business of helping executives strategize and plan and look at the big picture. We scheduled a lunch, and when he came by the office and introduced himself, he seemed like a nice enough guy.
We picked a little Mexican dive, and over lunch he began asking me questions about my business and some of my goals. I asked him some questions about what he does, and he dropped some big names of people he's worked with. He also dropped a dollar amount. He said about $25,000, which I gathered was to get coached by him for a six to twelve month period to help me figure out what I wanted and how I was going to get it. I was initially interested, because I feel that that type of input is valuable.
We spoke for a good long while, had some lunch and a few laughs, got to know each other, and then the check came, and the check sat there. Now I am of the mind that when you invite someone to go to lunch, you buy. And remember, he invited me. We sat for awhile longer. For about fifteen minutes, the check just sat there on the table between us. When we concluded and stood up from the table, he pointed to the check and said, "Do you want to split that?"
This is not about the money. The check came to $16.88 for our two lunches.
This was just a huge turn-off on several levels. One, when you invite someone out, you pay. It's just etiquette and common sense. Two, he said he was coaching these high-profile executives and he's wanting me to invest with him and do business with him, and he's asking me to pick up my half of the $16.88 check? So I did what any respectable business person would do: I picked it up myself, and I paid for it.
I just knew there was no way I could do business with this man after the impression this made on me. If you don't have the good sense to buy lunch for a potential client whom you're asking $25,000 from, then you are not someone I want to be coached by. When he wrote me his follow-up email, I wrote back and I said, "Hey I really appreciated our time together yesterday; you gave me some good things to think about that hadn't occurred to me. Unfortunately, I don't think we're a good fit at this time and I wish you the best."
Some people might see this as petty, but I think his actions that day exposed his character and called his credibility into question. If this man is really commanding the kinds of fees he was talking about with the kinds of names he was throwing around, and is still concerned about splitting a $16 check, then I have some serious reservations about his character. And I'm way more interested in character than what you've achieved professionally. I may want what you've achieved professionally, but if your character is such that you don't have integrity or common sense, then all the professional achievements in the world won't help you.
Seen through the perspective of branding, this gentleman's mistake was that his actions did not jive with the story he was telling about himself. And that violates one of the cardinal rules of branding: you must deliver a consistent message across all platforms. At the end of the day, that mistake ended up costing him $25,000.
I would love to hear your comments, so please enter them below.
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This article appears in the October 2009 edition of The Top One Report. To receive a trial edition for just $1, visit Joel Comm's Top One Report
Good call Joel. No brainer. Maybe he reads this. I would have done the same thing. A guy who can't cover a $16 bill when he invites? gez. Something doesn't add up right.
Haha Now that's a good story! I couldn't agree with you more on that one! I've been in a similar position and it's just down right rude. You were right in not investing in his time and coaching skills if he can't even be bothered to pay for a $16.88 check for a dinner that he had invited you to!! Great post bud
So let me get this straight. He invited you to a sales pitch over lunch for a very high end product ($25k coaching) and he didn't pick up the tab? In other words you probably spent at least an hour of your time and it wasn't worth about $20 to him?
Cheap.
You did the right thing.
It seems like with your name and connections you'll get some referrals from people you trust for someone who's worth the cash. I'd be curious who they are.
-Janet
So true. People forget that branding is not just about their logo, business cards and collateral materials.
Every interaction of an employee of that business with customers, potential customers and the community in general is ultimately representing the brand.
You were right on in deciding to not do business with that individual.
Apparently this person is not investing in his business. Your observation is well founded. The guy wants to build a professional relationship, for his benefit, and yet he obviously placed tension on the table by his inaction. He should have handed the waitress a credit card when she approached the table with the check. That would have kept the focus on the conversation. If he doesn't understand this basic principle, can he really give you good business coaching ?
You were spot on. Him not picking up the check says everything about his integrity, also about how his approach to "Coaching" would be stingy, miserly and unfulfilling. Mike
What sort of business coaching can command $25,000 from someone who does not understand the basics of business etiquette 101? Then again, those who can do. Those who can't...
Big..... Red...... Flags!!
Joel, that's a brilliant post!
I was reading a Seth Godin's post that made reference to the same kinf of situation. E.g the home insurance guy that tries to push a sale and when you ask him what kind of home insurance does he have? The answer is not the one supposed to be ;-)
This is happening everyday unfortunately but only very few people would detect that and take it as a deal-breaker.
All the best
Fred
I'd be glad to buy you lunch some day.
You might give some great advice that would help me to help more veterans with combat stress or PTSD.
Great lesson on how to be congruent and to operate with integrity.
Thanks!
Actions speak louder than words. You were spot on, and probably saved yourself a heck of a lot more than $25,000.
Lunch: $16.88
Personal credibility: priceless.
Carry on, my good man!
Good post, Joel.
Just this past week I turned down a big offer I'd received. It wasn't being handled in a professional or respectful manner, and even though it was a great opportunity, I really felt the need to decline. I just hold myself to a higher standard of integrity and I felt if I had accepted that it would not necessarily result in a positive change.
This is great insight Joel! If he was worth his weight in salt he'd have paid the tab & left a $ 20 bill as a tip to bless the person who served you! :)
Blessings on all you do,
Sandi Krakowski
Great post Joel. Absolutely agree with you; I would have done exactly the same.
It all goes to his integrity and sense of good business relations.
Well done
Jill
Wow...what a doofus!! This guy obviously missed sales training the day they taught this stuff, although even then, it seems pretty common sense to me.
For his sake, I hope he does read this post and learns from it. If not, he apparently missed class the day they taught about doing due diligence on your target market.
Great stuff and thanks for sharing!
great story - it's always a good decision to just eat the tab, and consider it the cost of eliminating that person from your pool of prospects. Spending $20 to quickly identify and eliminate a potential $25k waste is a great investment.
something almost as bad is when "they" do pay, but pay in ALL CASH -
Wow! When I attend a business lunch I actually try to pay the check no matter who did the inviting. Give me a shout if you ever get back to Enid and I'll buy you lunch. Wow!
Yo Joel!
Just right! Do ya remember when we grabbed a bite to eat at a seminar about 4 years ago. It was something like an $8 pizza but you offered to pay
(I think I bought the beer :-) )
Split the tab ... ha ha.. Im laughing. You made the right move!
Take it easy,
Foxy
Seems to me he lost a lot more that just $25,000. You're the kind of person who could send him a lot of business - I'd conservatively estimate he blew off a $250 - $500K or more...
I am shocked by the attitude of this coach...I mean really. As I was reading your post, I was thinking, "I seriously hope that Joel didn't do business with this guy."
Do I think you were petty? Absolutely not. If I invite anyone to lunch I pay because it's etiquette. If I invited someone to lunch to pitch a $25.00 product/service, I'd pick up the tab, so you better darn well believe that if I pitched a $25,000 service/product I'd pay. The audacity that some people present never ceases to amaze me.
-Becki
Joel you are so right with turning him down.
He showed you that you can not trust him. Branding and building a successful Business comes back to trust that you deliver what you promise.
He already made the commitment to pick up the bill when he invited you, but without picking up your part of the bill you can't trust him anymore and sure not for a $25k coaching program.
Gudrun
Great post Joel. I am in complete agreement and other than the usual gut feeling about someone would have done the same thing. I like that you pointed out that you liked him and would have done business with him. In the end he made a bone head mistake and paid dearly.
By the way where would you like to have lunch? On me of course :).
it is so easy to lose, and they are number of
"business gurus" around doing same thing
losing potential clients over "change"
I will do the same,
thank you, for sharing storey
Twicat
Great read. Had an all morning meeting with a potential new business partner yesterday. We ate and drank our way through $28 and at the end, as he reached for his wallet I said, I'll get this. The guy at the counter said, he can get the next one. And there is no doubt he will, or not.
You know Joel, some people just don't get it (yet). Maybe you could be generous with your feedback, tell him the truth and help him transform HIS business. And then send him an invoice for $25,000.
I'm glad you ran the other direction.
I relayed the story to Carrie and she said (without having read your post), "He lost $25,000 over what?"
I like the comment about "Big... red... flag" as well.
I was once out to lunch with some of the people from the DIMwits (you know the group), the day that we went to Starbucks and Frank Garon was in town, and we went to a Chinese dive, but being the youngest, least experienced, and probably earning the least of the group, I picked up the tab for the group, figuring it was the very least I could do to thank them for including me.
Thanks for sharing the wisdom contained in this post Joel!
Warmest,
Jonathan
Joel,
You made the right choice. If you're supposed to be "high profile" and don't even know common basic etiquette then something is an immediate RED FLAG!
I have taken potential clients out to lunch and picked up the tab 10 - 15 times that amount. The thing is, like you said, it's not the amount. It's his actions.
If he's "cutting corners" and being "cheap" no, make that "frugal", then what is he going to do in his training?
Your first impression is the key to moving a relationship forward. This is no matter if it's in person on on the social media landscape. Don't fluff yourself up. Be real; be honest; and most of all, be yourself. You ARE your brand, now act like it!
- Michael S. Copeland
(oops, started going off on a tangent there, lol)
Haha how did he respond when you picked up the bill and paid. Usually these kinds of types don't even get the message.
A successful business owner is created from character and many people don't realize this. The one who gives the most at every level of their business is the one who comes out on top.
Hey Joel,
This sounds like a great guy
to take on a hunting trip.Show
him a little bit of Colorado.
Cheap Bas????
Gary,
I agree with the way you handled this individual.
I was immediately turned off by his mention of the clients he had worked with and making mention of a dollar figure.
He sounds like a 'name/number dropper', one who is only interested in impressing you instead of to impress upon you a person of character and integrity.
We do learn from our experiences and I will truly learn from yours.
Wow, I can't believe that he invited you to lunch and then sat there 10 to 15 minutes waiting for you to pick up the check? Good call on not giving him $25,000 to coach you on business etiquette.
Excellent example of Branding, and the need for consistency in all we do.
I've gotten a lot of my business (and kept them) from persons who had companies with good credentials manage their Pay Per Click accounts...only to find little or no communication or customer service followed once they got the account and received the check.
It is truly unbelievable that this guy is doing business with anyone! People never cease to amaze me with their lack of common sense. The fact that he doesn't know how to play with the Big Dogs is a common mistake of business people struggling is sales. I have seen it time and again. Being a tight-wad will always be a turn-off to the ideal client. Etiquette is a big part of gaining a person's respect, trust and eventually their business. He needs to learn a few things from my kids. My own grade school children would know that much!
Wow $25k check for personal coaching ^.^ nice one dude
Regards,
www.sharks-lagoon.blogspot.com
Sounds like you were going to be his first client, Joel. :-)
I seriously doubt he could have garnered all these other high-profile clients if he had treated them in the same fashion. Perhaps the key phrase was "people he's worked with" (past tense -- and even then, "worked with" is such a nebulous phrase. Someone like that would have no problem claiming he's "worked with" Warren Buffet even if that only actually meant he owned a fractional share of Berkshire Hathaway while never having even met the man himself). In any case, he was a loser extraordinaire. He proved in that one meeting that *he* is the one who needs coaching.
I've always found the ones who talk big like that are the most likely to actually be an absolote zero when the truth comes out.
As you said Joel, branding is not just about logos and the like, its about consistency in all your activities. Its so often the little things that interrupt that consistency, as per your experience with this guy.
Incredible! Integrity in business is what it's all about. I can't believe he was that bold to even ask such a thing. Yes, you did the right thing.
It is all a matter of perspective.
I have had plenty of con artists offer to buy me lunch in order to secure a contract with my company. However, I always insist of paying for my own lunch, believing that anything else is unethical and could possibly be construed as a bribe.
It seems to me that Joel possibly missed out on dealing with an honest man who was obviously not attempting to buy his favour. Any con artists out there who are angling to win a contract from Joel now know that they need to first buy him lunch as that no doubt strokes his ego and makes him feel important.
Hey Joel, thanks for the story. No doubt, this is exactly why you should have lunches like these in the first place - so you can find out who you are really dealing with! We're all giving out signals all the time, so let this be a reminder to us all about what we're communicating to others by what we say, do and don't do :)
Joel, YOU are a gentleman, this "person" you referred to as "gentleman" several times is NOT! Never invite to dinner, lunch, etc without expecting to pay for it. I would have been less polite and picked up the check much sooner with a comment such as,"You obviously can't afford the lunch so I'll pay this time!" I now know there will never be another time...
Kudo's for remaining the gentleman. That's tooooo cool!
God Bless
Walter Gavurnik
Good call joel, that's what I would do as well!
his brand wasn't consistent throughout his life and he obviously was talking more than he was doing.
Thanks for the blog post! I look forward to learning more from you!
take care!
David
In terms of building a foundation for an ongoing business relationship, this is a schoolboy error by this guy and is not consistent with his claims of previous experience in building branding.
You not only saved yourself $25k but the inevitible extra time & hassle in rectifying further "errors of judgement".
We've always found that an initial meeting sets the tone for the ongoing business relationship. Sometimes this has meant walking away from potential "clients" as we've felt the ROI is just not worth the effort weighed against the high maintenance of certain potentialy "difficult" customers.
You did the right thing.
What a loser... anybody that won't cover a petty $16 check for a potential $25,000 is a very shady person. Sounds like a lawyer who wants to squeeze the last dollar he can out of anyone he trie's to do business with.
Your right on Joel..the guys not worth dealing with.
Whats his bank account look like compared to yours?
Probably very very small compared to you Joel.
Take care,
Asta Lavista Baby!!
Mark
Good Call..I would have done the same thing only in the reply I would have stated "I enjoyed our lunch and your input, but I don't think we would be a good fit because you have a serious character flaw." I couldn't resist leting him know he lost a client over a $16.00 tab. Oops...now maybe I have a character flaw..(smile)
That's kind of like asking "May I mail you some information about our services?" and then following it up with "Can we split the postage?"
I am a Malaysian Chinese, and from our standpoint, this is just not the "right way" to do business. This is no-brainier, I definitely won't do that. In Chinese, this is one of the way to built "Guan Xi" (meaning relationship) with your customers. I will do the same Joel. :-)
Rick
From Penang, Malaysia.
Great post Joel and this was the best decision you could have ever made.
I am really curious if this guy is legit, so keep us posted.
Lets get together for lunch and we can brainstorm some ideas.
My treat :)
Definitely agree. It would be a totally different story if it were lunch with a friend or something. And it's not even the fact that it was a business lunch between two businessmen. It's the fact that he was pitching to a potential client. What was he thinking?
Good post Joel! Sadly, this occurs often.
Last year, I was speaking to a local fellow about doing some webmaster work for me. He called one Saturday morning and asked if we could get together one day. I saw this as a perfect opportunity to bail on the 'honey do list' and said, "How about some lunch?"
At the end of the interview, I picked up the tab and tip. he had a very confused lookabout all this. Leaving, he said, "nobody has ever done that before!" I suggested that this example might be used as a future client screening tool.
Be well!
Jim
Hi Joel, sorry for the embarrassment. If i took you out for lunch, i will pay. After all, i am the CEO of Zofaa.com (Zofaa Communications), a premier provider of voice broadcasting, phone messaging, automated dialing system, email & text marketing in America. Verify me @ http://www.zofaa.com
I was thinking a little bit otherwise. At first, my feeling was to totally agree with you about it costing $25,000. However, I began to imagine if I were that person whom invited you to lunch, there could be a few deductions in my mind that makes me lose pace..
1) Business is business, lunch is lunch, lunch can be personal, and since it is the first casual business lunch, maybe he did not want to rush in to business so soon? Maybe he plain wants to get down to earth and make the first genuine friendship, he calls fairness irregardless of the amount?
2) Maybe he is afraid of offending you or feels himself out of place by treating you to that lunch? Maybe he was thinking "I am sure he would think that I have to buy him lunch to get that business" which is what he does not want you to think as such. Or buying you $16 dollar lunch aint just not good enough?
3) He knows you are not the type simple enough to please and a $16 dollar lunch can not win him that $25,000 business. And he is the type rigid enough to want to do things with a lot of reasoning?
4) He forgot to bring enough money because he was too excited rushing out his door in the morning or something?
5) He thought you would not mind splitting because you have been a very successful man.
Business can be so tactful that one small mistake is going to make you lose big. But is not that what business is all about, you either win or lose and nothing too personal? :) :)
Maybe he should have added in the reasons why he would prefer that you split and not just plain ask for the split causing such huge disappointment, embarrassment and the likes..
Joel, he might have just started to approach you as his first client! who knows..But luckily due to $16 check, you've known him better..
What a great call. Why would you give $25k to someone who can't even pick up a $16 lunch !!!! It sounds like he could do with a bit of coaching himself. His loss, your gain.........
Keep posting Joel.
You're the man !!!
Right on. Do yourself and your readers a favor, re:this same subject. Get a copy of the book (and maybe send a copy to the person you are writing about) so he can learn, too. Title: "The ART of the Business Lunch", by Robin Jay. It is now in twelve languages, because people from other countries want to know how to do business with Americans and of course a lot of AMERICANS Also wnt to know how to do more business.
The author also owns the Las Vegas Convention Speakers Bureau and you can see a lot by viewing one of hr websites, www.Robinjay.com Then you can decide for yourself if you want to recommend any of your many viewers to her. Thank You and I believe you will find it fascinating. PS I am her father. Dr. Jay
In the Philippines, normally, when you invite someone out for lunch or dinner , the inviter foots the bill- unless he /she says beforehand to split the bill. We would "lose face" (be embarrassed) if we invite someone and ask him/ her to pay unless we ask him/ her beforehand.
The guy lost $25,000 and much much more plus referrals and your goodwill over a $16 investment. The fact that you have given him time to meet with you means you were interested to invest in him. But apparently he was just thinking of himself...
Joel and your company, thanks very much for sharing this experiences, plus all the information and insights you shared with us your subscribers!!! God bless you all!
Greg R. Flores
www.itravelphilippines.net,
www.boracay-spot.com
Bacolod City, The Philippines
Your point is right on and I couldn't agree more!
I'm actually sorry that you are publicizing this. Anyone who doesn't have that much common sense (unless they're just broke) shouldn't be told this, they should know it. At least if their over 25 years old.
I had a similar experience several years ago. I was referred to a potential client to do some copywriting and consulting on their web presence. They were a significant company and my quoted fee was $12,500.
It was a good lunch, he asked me three specific questions and then our conversation was general. Then he asked for the check. I had already arranged for the hostess to use my credit card, so no check was even presented. He acted almost shocked.
On the way to valet he said, "I'll have a check for you in the morning." It was my turn to be shocked as this was our first meeting.
He told me later that my lunch tab action was what sold him on me. He'd already seen a lot of my work but I was up against 4 other people/companies. He said it seldom anyone else ever picked up a meal tab. Hard to believe, but profitable for a $45 lunch!
No free lunch? That's okay by me! I'll buy in return for $12,500 any day.
More power to you,
Tom Justin
Here in China, that guy would be the talk of the town for sure. People here do NOT like others who don't pay the bill, if THEY are the ones that invited the other person in the first place. That is just so wrong on many, many levels. I also get turned off by people who don't have something common at all these days, common sense.
The world needs more of it, especially after reading this post.
I think you read waaaayyyy too much into this. Was he a born and bred American? If not, it may well be that - as another person mentioned above - he was wary of being misinterpreted as attempting to build a business relationship based upon quasi-bribery.
Who chose the restaurant? You, Joel? If so, you would be seen as the host in many cultures - not him. Regardless of the original lunch arrangement.
Don't be too quick to judge over an 18 buck meal.
Lee
Joel, I so agree with your decision, and the comments, about what a poor choice this man made. He cheapened himself in your eyes such that you would not want to do business with him. Hopefully he has been reading this blog and has learned a valuable lesson.
Setting aside any potential cultural differences, having lived and worked in UK, Spain, Italy, Germany and the US - if I am meeting with anyone and they spend their time listening to me attempt to persuade or convince them to do business with me, I would expect, in fact insist, on picking up the tab as a means of showing my respect for their time and attention, regardless if they did do business with me or not. It's just that basic.
I don't get the "bribery" comments at all.
Joel you did the right thing and celarly many agree you did.
One quick note re CASH though - wait staff appreciate tips paid in cash because some restaurants pass along credit cards fees thus reducing what the waitperson actually receives regardless of what you intended them to get.
Debra
If one can't deliver on $16.00 lunch, who's to question if that same person is capable on delivering on 25K coaching.
Joel- Thanks for sharing.
A reminder to practice what you preach.
Amazing. He recommends, you invest in your business, yet he is not willing to do the same for his. Hmmm. I think you made a wise decision passing on that one.
Greg R. Flores (Philippines) was the only one who observed that the guy lost out on the tremendous referrals he could have received from you, whether or not you engaged his services. Not only did he seem oblivious to good sense, he was unaware that now, he'll get negative referrals from you. Not to say you will go out of your way to bad-mouth his professional services, just to say you will not be enthusiastic to recommend him should anyone ask you if you know any coaches you would like to refer people to.
Joel -
Had a similiar experience which is in hindsight, sort of comical.
I met with my attorney, at his suggestion, at a very exclusive restaurant to go through some current situations in my personal life. My atty knew I brought clients there regularly, and so he and I were treated like kings. When the bill came, he did the same "hesitation shuffle"(again, his invite) and so I finally signed for the check (I have an account w/the restaurant)and off we went.
About 2 wks later I received a bill from his law office for 1.5 hrs of "consultation". When I next saw my atty I brought a copy of the restaurant bill knowing he was going to inquire why I hadn't paid his bill.
I feigned oversight on my part as I put the statement for the lunch on his desk - it was just a little more than his amount - and that was the last I heard about the "consultation".
Sometimes you just have to do what you have to do to get people to see the error of their ways.
Hi Joel,
Want to go to lunch? I'll pick up the tab...great job with your books.
Tony
Yep. No brainer there. How could you, in your right mind, not expect to buy the lunch of a person that you invited and then asked to invest money with you?! Moronic!
Wise decision. I would have done the same.
Good thing to point out the big difference between what he said and how he acted. Big red flags indeed.
Joel ~
Your blog and comments found me from my Las Vegas Convention Speakers Bureau google alert. Imagine my surprise to see my FATHER'S comments (thanks, Dad...) as well as comments from my friend Tom Justin. Wow - you sure stirred up a hornet's nest, didn't you?!
I am surprised that several comments actually defended this clod's actions. Similarly, a printer lost my publishing business when he invited me to The Palm and let the check sit there...and sit there. Like you, I picked it up and paid for the lunch, even though he had done the inviting AND was trying to sell me a $10K print job for a book I was publishing at the time. It amazes me when people don't realize what is at stake.
Here is the rule.....ready? WHOEVER DOES THE INVITING PICKS UP THE CHECK...ALWAYS! And, as Tom pointed out, (Tom, did you learn this from me?) handing your credit card to the server upon being seated is the best way to avoid that awkward moment at the end of the meal when the check is presented. It's done - handled perfectly.
Lunch is an amazing opportunity to get to know someone, bond, and build relationships. I LOVE that you were genuinely considering hiring this man for a $25K consulting gig....and that his actions blew his chances to work with you. Can I send my people here to read this discussion? I also enjoy the passionate discussion that followed your story. It seems people either get it - or they don't. I hosted more than 3,000 client lunches and saw my sales increase by more than 2,000%. That is why my clients started calling me The Queen of the Business Lunch. I know what can be accomplished with a lunch DONE RIGHT!
Definitely a good call Joel and thank you for sharing your experience.
Wow, that's crazy!
As a start-up myself, I do not have much working capital, but I always invite mentors out to lunch and then pay.
I want to learn from them, so I feel honored at their accepting my invites.
It's the least anyone can do when inviting someone out to a meal, right?
Best,
-K
http://www.twitter.com/kevinpuls
What if this guy was just a master BS'er who didn't have the $16.88 to pay the tab?
Sounds to me like you missed out on having a great relationship. Picking up the lunch tab means whatever you want it to IMO. You can find ways to turn this person away or you can find ways to get closer. We're on the planet to get closer to others. Undoubtably he was testing you. IMO you failed his test for being a good client.
I think you learned a lot from this encounter and it only cost you $16.
Hi Joel,
I agree, if you are invited to lunch, the invitee pays and is not expected to pick up any part of the bill, let alone half.
I would be very dubious about doing business with somebody who asks for help with the bill. I find it very unlikely that this person does command such fees. If I did, I would pay for all invited lunchees!
Best wishes, Dave Summers.
Hi Joel,
Nice lesson to share. I see a second great lesson in the way you followed up. You could have been less than gracious but you were able to rise above the matter and simply decline as a gentleman.
Lynette
Joel, IMHO, I think you are mistaken. Yes, it was a matter of etiquette, but you judged him based on this action that says nothing about his character of honesty, integrity, intelligence or work ethic. I know many people of good character who might have done the same thing. He may be either not aware of social protocol, or maybe he's been criticized in the past of trying to bribe a deal by paying for a lunch and didn't want you to think that of him.
Paying for your lunch is merely smoozing you. If he took you to a $100 lunch and paid for it, does that indicate a better character than not paying a $16 lunch? Is that the kind of "character" you are looking for?
Good decision man. I did the same to 2 guys who wanted to do "say so 5 figure business" and actually we splitted the bill! Better don't hang around with such guys.
Excellent call. I learned somewhere "along the way" that how you do anything is how you do everything. This is how the coach would do business with you - and COACH you - with his/her own lack of basic etiquette. I don't buy that he didn/'t know what to do and if that's true, oh wow - He's a business coach!
Hi Joel comm,
how r u nice sharing I like it.
Joel , you did the right thing , i would of done the same.. I'ts just basic common sense that whoever invites pays..
keep up the good work, best wishes !
yes thats a major Faux pas. If you earn a lot of money, your usually not that chintzy. I would've paid and over tipped. Its not about show, its paying it forward.
Also, its one of those business things, if you give something something they tend to feel a little obligated to possibly use your service or product.
That was a bonehead move on the guys part.
@ChrisVoss
As a Life Coach myself, it is unbelievable that he would invite you and not pick up the tab. You were gracious enough to accept his invitation and spend your time open to what he had to say and he drops the ball. You did the right thing in not hiring him. I do hope he reads this and learns from his error.
@happyscribbles
As you stated in the blog, $16 was not significant. Whether its $8 in McDonald's or $800 in an Upper Class Steak House, how you present yourself is key. This is apparently a "power struggle". Neither one of you would find the $16 tab an issue, any more than deciding whether to buy a newspaper because the price went from 25 to 30 cents. So, the cost wasn't the issue.
The confusing part is the fact that HE invited YOU to lunch, then refused to pick up the tab, sounds more like a test. One that, obviously, he lost. (I'd be curious to know who left the tip).
Or maybe he was just looking for a free lunch. (I mean, who wouldn't favor a free lunch in a Mexican dive over a $25,000 contract...one that had distinct possibilities to grow into a business partnership worth millions?)
The only thing I would find more ludicrous would be for him to send you a proposal for his consultation and ask for $24,984, with a note saying he was wrong and should have picked up the tab for lunch.
So Joel, Are you free for lunch? I'm buying.
Chuck
I sincerly mean, that you did the right thing. As you say, peoples character and the way they behave tells you more than fine words, recommendations and past history. Money can buy a lot except for blind faith.
u r absolutely right. my father says if u have lost money u have lost nothing, if u lose health u lose something, but if u lose character u lose evrything.
I wish i could have the opportunity to learn from you I'm trying to set up my web page and a blog and its not easy for me i would almost give my right arm to have you teach me and get me going i have your book and its helping but like i said I'm not good at this stuff ill get better i hope
yours truly..need a merical
i dont no anything here [pls tell me more about to operate it
You did the right thing. I wonder how many other poeple he has done this to. Remember what goes around, comes around.
Sue
Dear Joel,
The case is intriguing. I would confirm with the gentleman that the 16.88 $ would be deducted from the 25,000 so the balance would be only 24,983.12 $ In case you work together.
Personally, I think his surprised face from such comment totally worth the 16.88 $.
Wormiest regards,
Erez Schwartz. Israel.
Lunch for $16.88? Not in this town! (NYC)
Very interesting. I think relationship is everything when it comes to finding out who a person really is. You encourage me with your observation of a simple, yet important point. It is the simple things that show the true character of a man and you found out over a $16 meal. Thank you for the insite!
Hi joel ,
I was laughing when i was reading ,
Certainly the person you discribed is a fool and ....
Well , i know you , that man should have a courtsy to pay .
And you have more value out here in our hearts.
hello joel
I Agree, if you are invited to lunch in my country COTE D'IVOIRE.
I will like to work with you because I have no money;
je suis près à respecter toutes les conditions que vous m'imposeriez
here there is poverty.
merci car tu est très gentil.
this is my number phone:+22506437975
I'd say you're correct and it has everything to do with character. Even if he was a friend it would be good etiquette to offer to pick up the check if he invited you. But, as a business person it's de rigueur. I would never do business with somebody that's so cheap they can't pay a lunch bill.
Joel,You know something.I just have a similar experience like you do.It wasnt about business but it was about ministry.A guy was trying to promote his ministry to me and called me out for a lunch. He spoke for the whole lunch and I was a listener most of my times. He share so much about his vision and all the things he knew about his ministry but seldom care about how I am doing.By the time we finished the lunch ,he asked me to split the bill and we both pay half(I didn't even bother to check the bill and just pay whatever he said,because I just want to leave as soon as possible).I agree with you that if the person doesn't even have character and common sense,it is hard to cooperate with such a person.It is not a matter of money ,it is just a matter of wisdom and feeling. How would anybody wants to be around with people like that if he doesn't even know how to be a host or a friend to other and just keep thinking about himself all the times. Anyway Joel, I begin to enjoy your post since your post will talk about life but not money all the times like all the internet businessmen are doing.Maybe that;s why you are so success and thats something that we all have to learn about. God bless you.
Hi Joel
Ditto to most of what is above... Was the guys integrity less than in tact though?.... Don't get me wrong though because for all the same reasons I too would have given him the flick. I've just written a blog on this very topic if anyone is interested. see url http://thegoodmail.blogspot.com/2010/12/integrity-myth.html ... By the way Joel if you are still keen to discuss your business development needs I'd be very keen to hear from you:) Cheers, Ron
People forget that branding is not just about their logo, business cards and collateral materials.
You were right on in deciding to not do business with that individual.
You are absolutely right sir. It looks odd. You cannot lose $25,000 just for a silly habit.
This is not just a great story about a chump who didn't pick up the tab. This is a story about the character of a man and what motivates him. His desire was to get money. We all desire money, but that is not enough to bring about the kind of investment coaching can bring. He was excited about the names he could drop. Great leadership is about pouring your life into the person you are coaching. Is it lucrative? Absolutely. But never forget, the reward is greater than money. The reward is the transformation of another human being to help him fulfill his God-given destiny.
I am new to the community. This post speaks volumes ..... It gives me a glimpse of the vastness (length, breadth, and depth) of your content.
Thank you Joel
Hi Joel
I have never never felt comfortable with people splitting the cost for lunch. If you invite someone else for lunch or dinner, you are expected to pay and be agentleman so that the other party feels good about it and have a good impression of you. But again, in some cultres, especially Australia, it has been a common trend (I don't know whya nd even till today I am still baffled) that when people go for lunch, invite anothe rperson for lunch, or it's a farewell lunch, each is expected to foot their own bill!!! I still cannot accept such a culture even till today. In the asian ennvironment where I was born, educated, and developed my career, we never had such things as let's split the bill and working out what items each has ordered and how much it will cost each person! Definitely, for sure, I will not associate with such persons and that's why in the Australian environment, I seldom invite people for luches or dinner as I feel too embarassed having to split the cost.
Joel:
This was a great post and obviously struck a chord with many people. Of course, I agree with our take on the situation. I feel it most appropriate to pick up the tab when I invite, and if the other person insists, I definitely make plans for to invite and pick up next time. My networking community has a standing guideline that lunches are split. That's different than what you were discussing.
But here's the real point:
Your lunch mate has NO IDEA why you don't feel he's a fit for you. He's clueless as to why you backed away, and he'll never know.
If you had wanted to you could have shared this withi him - for his own benefit. But for all of us who have ever experienced a potential client saying "we're not a good fit" or worse yet, not telling us anything at all, assuming fees are too high is obviously not a reality.
It's a total blindspot. I have made it a practice to ask my prospects, gently, and with great respect, if they'd share with me how they made their decision. I've learned alot of great lessons this way. It does take courage to ask the difficult questions.