I served as a first class petty officer in Vietnam from mid 1963 to late 1965 (celebrating my 30th and 31st birthdays in-country) and later (from 1968 through 1971) on gunfire support and other missions in connection with "Market Time" operations.Before going to Nam I went through SERE (Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape) training.

My immediate prior job was in Oceanographic Detachment 3 embarked in USNS Michaelson (TAGS-31)--an independent duty assignment involved with developing such things as topographic maps of the ocean's bottom for use by our ballistic missile submarines.

Even earlier I had been privileged to work with VADM Theodore D. Ruddock, Jr., and had worked in the Staff of the Chief of Naval Air Advanced Training (RADM Joseph "Jumping Joe" Clifton who while at the Naval Academy had become an All-American in football) where I was involved in such diverse matters as developing flight training syllabi and working in war planning.

Other tours in 2 destroyers (USS COWELL (DD-547) and USS HENRY W. TUCKER (DDR-875) had further broadened my knowledge and understanding of both the reasons why we served (which most junior personnel seldom realize fully--maybe because too much testosterone is still flowing; too much adreneline is being provided; the fear gets in the way; the unit is placed above all; or the length of or types of their service has not provided the experience needed to fully understand those reasons.

Few who served in Vietnam have ever (for instance) read the accords under which we went there--at the time we established the Military Assistance Advisory Group, Vietnam, intent on helping the people of South Vietnam remain independent.

Nations are "group personages" and (under the precepts of international law which this nation has long championed) are subject to sanctions for transgressions against other nations. When a nation gives its word by entering into a pact, treaty, accord or other agreement with either another nation or with an international organization such as the United Nations, it is tantamount to an individual signing a contract with another. Failure to perform the obligations agreed to and actions against the contract are punishible by fine, incarceration and other sanctions against the individual--not only under civil law but not infrequently under criminal law as well.

While an entire nation cannot be imprisoned, the concept of honor must be considered. When an individual doesn't live up to his or her word, honor is lost at least insofar as those who value honor are concerned. A less than honorable person is not to be trusted in the eyes of many.

So is it too among nations. When a nation fails to live by its pledge, the nation loses national honor and the respect of the other geo-political entities of the world.

We went to Vietnam pledging "to do everything necessary and proper to insure the territorial integrity of South Vietnam against incursions by any other nation". In that we failed. Further, when we decided to bomb North Vietnam we ourselves violated international norms and became an agressor nation. Small wonder so many of the other nations of the world came to question the United States so harshly.

Before John Kerry or any of the others who call themselves part of the Swift Boat community, I knew and served with many of those who went before them. The River Assault Groups (RAG's) working out of such places as My Tho and Can Tho in Go Cong Province and other areas of the My Kong Delta, had inherited STACANS (twin hull catamarans) from the French and American advisors--officer and enlisted--with their Vietnamese counterparts patrolled the rivers, canals and estuaries of the delta seeking Viet Cong and engaging them.

One such person was Lieutenant Harold Dale Myercord who was killed in combat in the Delta in 1965. Prior to his death he had been awarded some 4 (possibly more) Silver Stars and a number of Bronze Stars and Purple Hearts. He was awarded the Navy Cross posthumously.

I can remember two Chief Petty Officers coming to me complaining that the navy commander who was in charge of all "Sea Force" advisors refused to accept their (the chiefs') recommendation that Lieutenat Meyercord receive a Silver Star for an action in which they had participated. I told them to submit the recommendation themselves and to, then, present it to the commander for forwarding up the chain of command. I also told those chiefs that the commander had no option but to forward the recommendation up the line and that should he not do so they should inform me (an E-6) so that I could make it happen.

Understand that, by that time, I had already taken and aced some 20 officer correspondence courses and pretty well knew the rules.

Recommendations for awards and decorations to members of the armed services and the individual services are not given out capriciously. They are intensely reviewed at every level between the recommender and the awarding authority--generally a command far removed from the individual.

I am no hero--though for 30 years I was willing to give my life for our Constitution and still would. I cannot consider the Late Ronald Reagan or those around him to have ended the Cold War--some of us (all of those who served for so many years to counter the Communist threat) just may have had something to do with it.

I cannot consider such as Ollie North as but a mid-level officer who should have been court-martialed for multiple violations of Article 92 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice. His failure to obey various general orders and regulations were certainly far less than honorable and are as slap in the face to those of us who (when we did not live by the rules) faced our punishment(s), learned from them, and did serve honorably.

I look on those who believe they were in military service to support a political agenda, a moral imperative, an administration or a president to be (at best) naïve. The Oath of Office is to the Constitution. There is no mention made of anything else save the requirement to obey the orders of the officers appointed above one.

Various of my superiors were instrumental in higher authorities awarding me (among others) the Joint Service Commendation Medal, The Navy Commendation Medal, and two Navy Achievement Medals--5 rows of ribbons in all.

I considered myself extremely fortunate to be able, between general duty assignments, to work directly for two VADM's and 7 RADM's as well as with at least 3 Navy Captains who went on to flag rank.

I would note that for almost half of my military service I served in the position of Master Chief Petty Officer of the Command and was, from the time promoted to E-3, always the senior person in my field and the enlisted leader in every activity to which assigned. It was challenging as a 20 year old third class petty officer to be filling the billet of a chief petty officer. It was the more disconcerting to be promoted to first class petty officer at 20 years of age while my contemporaries were normally at least ten years older.

I can only comment on the service of those with whom I served and was required to do so each and every time I prepared performance reports on them or (in the case of some seniors with whom I worked) prepared the initial draft of Officer Fitness Reports.

Serving in Vietnam, with extremely high security clearances, I say the daily intelligence briefs. I also saw most of the after action reports submitted by commanders in the field.

From them I learned of many instances which by any stretch of the imagination were tantamount to atrocities but which, because of the circumstances under which they occurred (responding to the threat of the moment) could be justified. Even one such event if done with malice aforethought is unacceptable and there were many. Unfortunate as they were, they did happen. Those who were there and involved comprise the greatest faction of those diagnosed with extreme Post Traumatic Stress Disorder.

I find it shameful that those who never served with Kerry in the same unit (be they officer or enlisted without regard to what they might have later done or what their achievements--and especially the admiral) would presume to speak out about things of which they have little or no knowledge.

Shame on them. I question their integrity.

Albert M. Forget
Command Master Chief Petty Officer (Surface Warfare), U. S. Navy (Retired)
14349 32nd Ave NE Apt 105

Seattle, WA, 98125-3641

A) george bush didn't serve in vietnam, and neither did dick cheney.
dick cheney said, "I had better things to do" than serve in the military.
and george bush went awol from his national guard service(protecting alabama from enemy attack...).

B) many of these vietnam vets who are now criticizing senator kerry had previously praised him: Associate Press: " George Elliott, one of the Vietnam veterans in the group, flew from his home in Delaware to Boston in 1996 to stand up for Mr. Kerry during a tough re election fight, declaring at a news conference that the action that won Mr. Kerry a Silver Star was "an act of courage." At that same event, Adrian L. Lonsdale, another Vietnam veteran now speaking out against Mr. Kerry, supported him with a statement about the "bravado and courage of the young officers that ran the Swift boats."
"Senator Kerry was no exception," Mr. Lonsdale told the reporters and cameras assembled at the Charlestown Navy Yard. "He was among the finest of those Swift boat drivers."
Mr Elliott also had called Mr. Kerry "unsurpassed," "beyond reproach" and "the acknowledged leader in his peer group."

C) the funding for this is coming from texas political operatives, friends of the bush family, and right wing conservatives: New York Times: "A series of interviews and a review of documents show a web of connections to the Bush family, high-profile Texas political figures and President Bush's chief political aide, Karl Rove.
Records show that the group received the bulk of its initial financing from two men with ties to the president and his family - one a longtime political associate of Mr. Rove's, the other a trustee of the foundation for Mr. Bush's father's presidential library. A Texas publicist who once helped prepare Mr. Bush's father for his debate when he was running for vice president provided them with strategic advice."

see, this is why progressive and independent voters in the united states are so offended by the radical right wing of the republican party. the radical right are the same people who criticized max leland's war record(max leland lost both legs and one arm while serving in vietnam)and ran ads comparing max leland to osama bin laden and saddam hussein.

bush's policies have failed. his record is abysmal and he has nothing to run on. so he resorts to lying about the war record of senator kerry, a decorated war hero, to take attention away from the fact that the economy is in terrible shape and the war in iraq is an unmitigated, unnecessary disaster.

Joel,

Please take the time to explain what part of moby's comments are false. Not only are they true, in an interview with the New York Times, Bush said he thought Sen. Kerry should be proud of his record. "No, I don't think he lied," Bush said.

And I would like to know at what point moby mentioned Michael Moore? You may get your "news" from one source but assuming those who support John Kerry made their decision based on one film is just false and simple minded.

I find it unbelievably ironic that you refer to the "left" as "easily led" when clearly you are unable to to see the truth through your hatred of freedom of other Americans. The facts are right in front of your face and you pretend they do not exist.

If you want to vote for Bush, that is great, in America we have that amazing right, but don't be so childish to think that any opinion that differs from your own is automatically wrong.

I challenge you to debunk moby's statements and show all of us how they are incorrect.

The swift boat vets who attacked John Kerry were proven to be liars within days of their disgraceful commercial. Also within days, Bush's connection to these ads was easily discovered.

It's time for you to grow up and start to view the world through adult eyes. It's a complex place out there Joel and at some point you need to realize it isn't always us vs. them. It is sad how much hate you feel towards your fellow Americans, especially a war hero.

A very friendly site. Have a nice day! only while the sun shines: http://www.pmai.org , Lazy Stake Play or not Ninety-eight percent of the adults , when Plane is Opponents it will Play Game Read more at desktoplinux.com

"I am proud to stand with... Max Leland ...

Let your pride unfold fully.. at least enough to get his name right..

In response to Chet Headley:

If you are at all an honorable person you will access the page for OCDET3 on the website you provided.

There you will find several newsletters. On the second page of one of them you will find my name listed.

You spent one enlistment in uniform and were taught a whole helluva lot of things about electronics. While other sonar techs were serving in the submarine force and aboard destroyers, you had a plush job. You parlayed that job into a much-higher-paying position as a techrep.

All that while I was doing the things you suggested I did not.

I do apologize, though, for typing 31 (the hull number of the USS BREMERTON (CA-31)in which I also served rather than 23 which, of course, was the hull number of MICHAELSON.

ALBERT M. FORGET
CMDCPO, USN (Retired)