Very good point Joel. I'm working on my own product, but it will be less than $100 and focus on a niche I do very well in - making money with Amazon's Associates program. I also know that I want any customer that I meet at a conference or event to come up and say thanks for creating the product it really helped me out. Instead of having to duck the punches that someone is throwing because they feel ripped off.

In any case, I do agree the $1997 price point is ridiculous because just like you said - most of the time it's just information that has been repackaged.

I prefer to make most of my money by actually building websites in niches outside of "make money online" and then monetizing the traffic using the best methods for that niche.

Random Question: Did you ever get your Amazon Associates account reinstated?

GREAT POST! I am so glad someone said it because reading about riches, instant twitter lists and million dollar product launches is messing up my peeps. When I tell them that using the internet to market their business is a get rich slow model, they think that I am crazy. Didn't they just get 10 emails today saying that they could do two simple things or buy a "ready made system" that will generate cash by the handfulls?

Building an online business is just like building an offline business! You need goals, focus and persistance.

Dear Joel,
Only blind one doesn't see that Online marketing became a place where one group of people tries to cheat another one.
All these "big launches" became a BS and like you said are repackaged and re-written old products and they absolutely do not cost $2,000.
May you found anyone of these "Gurus" who is offering something "How to make money out of "how to make money online" niche.
99.99% are selling only in this niche.
Why?
Because here the most money are made and the most lie could be sold.
I respect your position and hope there are more honest guys will work online and make money the honest way.

HI Joel,
I am so glad you stood up and wrote about this! I see it happening so much and the new internet marketers who are just starting out also get into these ad-swaps and overload my inbox! Unsubscribe and delete!!

Sometimes I see a product that may help me in my biz and the emails and bonuses that other marketers are giving away make me wonder how good the quality of the original product is in the first place!

It is giving Internet Marketing a bad name!!

Glad I found you and your blog. I just recently purchased KaChing because you are one marketer that I DO trust and because I love your honesty and the way you write.

Thanks again Joel, and God bless!!

Lisa~

Joel,

It's refreshing to hear someone speak out abbout the abuses that are taking place in the internet marketing niche. I get no less than 200 emails every single day from every freakin' marketer on the planet.

And much of it is just a rehash of something I already have or already seen... It's out of control!

Kudos to you for speaking out on it.

Best Wishes,
carl Willoughby

Your message touch me and give me a better feeling.

Each time I'm contacted to promote expensive product, I feel I need to buy it and try it before to promote it. I don't want to promote something not enough good for me. But... my expenses are limited and I can't buy all. Thank you God !

Some friends of mine buy the ones I can't pay for and few weeks after, they call me to complaint about the crapy stuff they received.

Your message, mostly wrote by a man who KNOW the market and who can make lot of money, is a piece of cake for us. You walk in the opposite way than others emarketers and, for the first time, I can feel better. You are the proof they are not all focused on our money and their wallet....

Thank you for your franchise, I appreciate it very much.

Sylvie Laflamme

I knew I liked you from the beginning, your integrity is intact. Its so refreshing to read your articles because when you speak the truth, the subtext resonates with honesty. I'll always buy from you, always have, always will.

Joel! You really are an exception though :)

Thanks for saying these things out loud. I've been saying them for years, but since I'm only a small fish, it doesn't have the same impact.

"Be honest" should be the most important rule, everybody should follow. Yes, you'll probably make less money by following that rule, but by treating your list members (living people) like cash cows (an expression, I hate), you might make a lot of money here and now, but I doubt that people will keep trusting you.

Dixi - Britt Malka - the honest marketer

I totally agree.

I have seen so many products with a price range from 997-1997 - I often think, is it really worth it? I have never bought such product.

The worst thing about those $2000 launches is that the same person, will 6 months after releasing that product, release an entire new product.

I tend to buy your books, kaching, twitter power, adsense etc... but if you should release a book/infoproduct for $2000, man I would pass on that.

As you also mention, one-on-one coaching is much more valuable, and I'd gladly pay $2000 for some coaching, if I thought it was needed.

You make some good points - creating products to sell to make money online that are about making money online are just not sustainable.

Info products need to add real value to the internet marketer's business 7 not just create false hopes.

You are so right Joel!, but sadly there are many people out there that think that just by building a website they'll become rich, and it's not that easy! imagine if it where!

Joel, as one of the big names in IM I want to thank you for saying this. My respect for you has increased 10 fold.

This is something that has been making me more and more uncomfortable with the Internet marketing world lately. I know that the "make money" market is always going to have more money grabbers than most but when people I have previously had a lot of respect for seem to be interested only in promoting the next high priced course and no longer offering anything of any value (except, as you pointed out, to lower the value of their own products by offering them as bonuses) it leaves a bad taste.

Many of them seem to be offering courses in stuff that is being given away for free elsewhere or which can be obtained via some membership sites (where there is a LOT more value and expertise offered) for a fraction of the $1997 price point (I pay for a couple of very advanced memberships that cost me less than $100 a month so I can get 20 months for the same price).

Anyway, it's great that you have made a stand to maintain your integrity and thank you for speaking out.

Should we name names then Joel? Last week one of the products launched for 2K was the biggest load of repackaged rubbish I have ever seen and it was promoted by every one and their dogs in a race to win iPads and then loads more. Obviously I didn't buy it as I don't buy into the hype but many people especially the newbies seeking the magic bullet in these hard times would have been sucked in by these "secrets".
Luckily it seems that Google is getting a bit wiser to the scammers and many, including those who were promoting the product last week, have had their merchant accounts cut off so they can now only promote other's products.
I produce products just like everyone but of course I am not a Guru and those who get them do thank me for the value rather than having to duck and dive. I could have given more value in a ten minute interview than was given out last week for 2K.
Great stand you are taking as in the end your reputation is the most important even if you did invent the iFart app ;-)

You are right. These high priced products are in a way useless for the average guy, it may be good for the person who has a name and money to throw around. It is very difficult to make a single dollar online and you have to pick a niche that is not crowded. I think niche specialties are good to go after instead of these general high priced courses that have 65% refund rate.
PPC is very very hard because you will never make money at it unless you have organic traffic first. List building is hard because you have to have traffic. So to have traffic you have to build a brand and that takes at least two years. No one tell you that.

Great post Joel.

I haven't completely ruled out the option of promoting high priced products, but I do turn down the massive majority of requests that come my way to promote as an affiliate. I just get way too many.

It seems people are way to quick to just try and fill a gap and then slap a large price tag on it before there is justifiable cause to do so. I don't find it fair to the customer in many instances. On rare occasions I can get behind large ticket items, but I get more and more skeptical each and every day.

As far as manipulation and sales persuasion I'll admit I've learned from the best of the them. And I mean the best. However, I still find it easier to just be yourself and treat your customers and prospects the same way you'd treat your grandma.

In the end it's much easier to sleep at night, and you don't have to worry about so many bitter customers. Like you, I've sacrificed hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of dollars because I want to feel good about myself.

However, I am human and have promoted a few products that I wish I did not. But I get wiser, and stricter every day about my policy of promoting marketer.

Cheers

Jason

Hi Joel,

You're one of the the few oneline experts that I open when I see your name on an email. This post is an example of that credibility factor.

I saw a video the other day of some kid making outrageous claims. He showed two checks, dated weeks apart, for his supposed affiliate commissions. both had the same low number (1003) and though supposedly were from different companies, were of the same design.

Not only are the inexperienced selling how-to junk they've never done, fraud is also rampant. So, buyer be ware. Also, producers be ware. The FTC doesn't need too many complaints to come knocking.

One more thing, Internet marketing isn't just about making money selling stuff on how to make money, it's about promotion and branding using the most dynamic tools in the history of the world.

When we cut the crap and wade through the swamp of choices, there are clear paths to these discoveries. I get tickled almost every day as I explore the possibilities for myself and for my clients.

Keep up the great work!
Tom Justin

Value + Integrity = Value Integrity. There's far too little of it today. And the rush for a $2K+ product is the main reason. Your idea that the price point allows for a $1K commission is probably too on target. For both launches and for back of room sales at conferences.

I've consulted folks trying to get their website working and selling. Usually, they don't do anything and that's the reason it doesn't work. Most of the rest of the time, they don't follow instructions. Instead, they jump at something easy that doesn't really work.

Most of this stuff is pretty easy if you just take it in little chunks.

A marketing consultant 15 years back told mail order marketers to "bulk it up" so there was "heft" in the box when it arrived. And regurgitated junk was the result. "They're not going to read it anyway," he said.

Now we get the online version.

I'd rather get something short and simple that actually does some good.

Well it's not often I can completely agree with a post, but this one is dead on Joel. I've been touting the points you make for some time now.

I believe that a good product is one that helps people do what they know how to do, not one that sort of tells them how to do it, or automates the process so their efforts results in nothing but spam or spewing out old info.

I just think of all the money spent on junk and rehashed information that doesn't work, and can't help but wonder how many more successful marketers they'd be if the money was spent on tools that made things that do work, work better and easier.

It really is a vicious cycle of product launches, then giving the launched products away as a bonus for the next product launch, and so on until a sane person can quickly see none of these products are worth what one is being sold for combined.

And the truth be told, the free information leading up to one of these product launches is usually more valuable than the junk being sold for $2000.

Well said Joel. Recently purchased a "big launch" product. It was only 77 dollars but it was nothing new.

Build a site, blog, capture emails, build a list, sell to your list. How is this new? Promised tons of money from Clickbank, it probably worked for these guru's who already have 50,000 people on their list. That doesn't help someone that has 28 people on their list.

I believe the best kept secrets are just that, secrets.

Hey Joel,

At least a few of your peers have taken a very strong stand on this. Mike Young at the Internet Marketing Law Center has made this a constant theme.

http://mikeyounglaw.com/internet-lawyer/internet-law-firm-marketing/

And of course, Sylvie Fortin's Internet Marketing Sins, written over a year ago, took a strong "let the consequences be damned" stand against these kinds of practices.

http://www.internetmarketingsins.com/

I am not in the IM niche but I have created one website that promotes building websites with Socrotes and wordpress because I believe in it. I am honest with visitors that not only is it hard work but building websites can create problems. Many who sell these these kinds of products would have you believe it's all a bed of roses without notifying people that roses have thorns!

Hey Joel,
I couldn't agree more with this post. In fact, I actually wrote a very similar post on my blog a couple of weeks ago (with the identical title too). I've passed on promoting all of these $2,000 launches as well. I know the people on my list are probably struggling right now but I'd rather see them spending their money on things that will directly result in traffic and profits... Things like advertising and various promotions.

These launches have gotten out of control. It's the same stuff over and over again. The creators seem to be focusing more and more on satisfying the affiliates over satisfying the customer. That is completely wrong, in my opinion. The biggest marketers out there didn't get where they are today by taking the focus off of the customer. That's why I think that the future success stories are going to be the people that are honest and always put the customer first.

Look at companies like Zappos and even Amazon... They didn't get to where they are by putting their affiliates first...

Matt

In general and in principal, I agree with what you're saying here Joel.

However, the reality is that as a product creator, attracting affiliates to promote your product, does in the end come down to how much they'll make and how well the offer converts. (which ideally comes down to the product quality, but not always)

With the market standard set at $2K for "big ticket" training, and with plenty of examples of social media, SEO and membership / local site marketing strategies ... it's often easier to repack what is already selling, rather than venture too far from the pack ... after all, buyers start to expect a certain look and flow and respond to what is familiar to them.

I'm sure I don't have to tell you that often, the first into a market is NOT the winner in the end, it's the second, third ... who does a more effective job at developing the market than the first would be able to do the first time around ... (to sum that complicated bit up ... being #2 is usually better than being #1 into a market)

Finally, lets admit that for every 1 person that actually takes action on the training and even gets through the exercises, there are 10X the number of people who will not take action on the information.

For whatever reason, they're more addicted to the process of buying these 'get rich quick' schemed ... knowing full well there is no magic - do it for you - guaranteed make money solution .... that they'll actually have to put some of these strategies into action ... but they keep buying the information over and over.

Of course these people are going to be REmarketed to until they fall off the band wagon (or actually get some success and start focusing on building what they have instead of starting from scratch with every new fad - SEO, Adsense, Arbitrage, CPA ... etc... etc...

I think trends of offering more platforms / systems with the $2000 price point should be the focus, not lowering the price point.

Instead of buying a course on how to setup landing pages, do keyword research and drive traffic through media buys ... if that course came with the software all setup, the landing pages customized, the back end offers in place ... then we're seeing the "how to" supplemented with the "it's working for you now" ... then we have more potential to turn some of these non action takers (who get confused by rebranding a PDF, let alone FTP) into action takers.

To sum up ... I don't think the answer is to lower the price point.

I think the answer is to raise the bar on what is provided for that price point.

Nothing motivates an affiliate like $1000 cold hard cash, and in the end, the affiliate network is where the biggest leverage points are in most of these info product offerings.

That's my 2cents ... and what I'm working on.

Joel
So true!!! This past week I have decided to "opt out" of MOST of the same old garbage that keeps coming through. The thing that is MOST irritating to me is that when you have been online a while you start to get the same offers over and over from different people AND the recently one marketer sent no less than five emails about the same offer practically begging, saying Just one more day and this offer will go away. I emailed him and said DO NOT send me one more email about this. Appreciate your honesty..

Joel, YOU ARE NO SAINT. YOU WERE ONE OF THESE SAME PEOPLE YOU ARE NOW CRITICISING. I DONT TRUST YOUR MOTIVE. Where is the proof of your Repentance?

Hi Joel, Thank you for a huge breath of fresh air. I almost feel like you were reading my mind when I read your post today. I was just going through my email and felt actually assaulted by the barrage of emails from affiliates marketing the same product and I am sure I am not the only one feeling like it is being shoved down my throat. I really appreciate your integrity and hope your comments inspire others to consider true value, not just "perceived value" in what they are selling.

Well said Joel. I'm up to my ears in bonuses from other marketers and all of them vying for my c.c. info. In my eyes almost everything online is available and given out without any cost what-so-ever...but it does take a-lot of time and research to find it. Even your adsense e-book that I once thought was a bit over-priced is now available for free. This is good news for those beginners who are looking to make a part time income with adsense.
Paul

Great post and I agree whole-heartedly. I'll take it a step further and say that they could make even more money at lower prices even than the $997 - if they appealed to a larger crowd who really is hurting today and could use the help.

What I'm really tired of? Seeing the same things today for that $2000 that is simply rehashed information you can get for free with a couple internet searches. Or a product being charged for that in another version can be obtained free, or close to it, if you know where to search.

I like seeing people finding ways to make money, but not when they are doing it in ways that actually hurt, rather than help, most of their customers.

Awesome article. Thanks Joel! And I loved your book KaChing as well. When you take care of your list like you do you keep your customers. I have gotten on so many others lists, but it is only the ones that "prove" their integrity to me that keep me there and get my hard earned money later.

Thanks! Dave

I appreciate your openness and desire for a fair deal all around.

As the US and global economy starts its strongest leg down as it surely must some time soon, a greater blame game will ensue, at which point self-centered and short sighted internet business practices will appear even more unpalatable.

And hunger for real solutions under such conditions will be greater even than now, provided one can get past the cynicism and despair. In the end, though perhaps not completely or always, in large measure we reap what we sow.

Very well said Joel!!!

I used to have a lot of respect for the top Marketers out there. Over the years I have most probably purchased 5 – 10 of these $2K courses myself and then I started to see a pattern occurring i.e. a pattern of greed and delivering rehashed and regurgitated product. Many of these guys do not even look at the list of the previous customers that have bought version 1 of their product and offer those customers a 75% discount on the updated version, all they are interested in is making multiple million dollar launch days – They make me puke!

I have now reached the point where anytime an email comes in for some new product or even version 2 or version 3 of an established product, I look at the “from” field, then look at the “subject” line and I do not even open the email. In fact out of 40 – 50 lists that I am on; I only open emails from about 4 or 5 marketers (You are in that 4 – 5 Joel), so 90% of these emails I no longer even open, never mind read!

Nice post Joel!

Hi ,Great post I am a total newbie to this game an one of the biggest things I have noticed is everything seems to cost $1997 this is really $2000 why do the say $1997 ?
All these products are way overpriced they say they care and want to see us suceed all they want is a huge launch check and thank you very much.
I am sure more people would buy these products at lower prices and build up a bit of trust with potential customers .
I am new to this game but I tell you one thing must of it sucks,people selling selling and when you buy they try to sell some more .Only for me meeting up with a guy called geoffery moffet I would be broke by now.

Thank You Joel,
Your post articulated exactly what I've been seeing, a lot of it happening in the last 1-2 months especially with "new" product launches. Too much hype around the product/s using common practices to create a sense a urgency,scarcity, buy now before it closes, last minute bonuses out the ying-yang, Wait! if you can't pay the $1997 up-front how about 3-monthly payments.
Can't these "Gurus" come up with something original? How is a newbie able to separate the good from the bad when all the products have been: re-purposed, re-written, re-hashed, re-gurgitated, and ultimately,re-sold?

I appreciate the honest, genuine way, you speak/write to your customers/followers. I count you as one of my " online mentors", along with a handful of others.

You're Doing Good Stuff!

Anthony

Seems at thought the both of us tell it like it is to our readers. $2k for a info product is way too much. I've only seen one product amongst the many I've sold that was actually worth $2k and that was Andy's Video Boss.

Joel, I cannot thank you enough for your honesty. It makes me feel like there really are some good guys left out there! For many, many years I have often felt that the whole "IM Niche" is, well, incestuous. (sorry, that's the only word I could think of).

You can ALWAYS be certain that if "Well-Known Person A" has a new product coming out then "Well-Known Person B" will be sending you an email shortly thereafter singing the praises of a "Well-Known Person A's" product. It's almost become laughable.

I've worked online since 1996 - a majority of that time was NOT in the affiliate marketing arena.

Over the years I have seen products move up in price-point from $37 to $67 to $97 to $197 to $1997 (will the next price-point be $19,997?) :-)

With everything that people get bombarded with these days, it's often difficult to keep your "reality" in check and the "social proof" aspect takes over like I have never seen it done before.

Whenever I look at a product I always consider first if I can make my money back using that product. "Will this $197 product actually MAKE me $197?" And if not, or if there's even a tinge of doubt, I pass.

I too have a hard time promoting these high-priced products and it's on a very RARE occasion that I do (I've NEVER by the way, promoted one that's $1997 - that's absolutely ridiculous). It would have to spit gold directly from my computer first.

I guess I just wanted to let you know that it's nice to know that there are others out there (who are MUCH more influential than I am), who feel the same way I do. Given the option between millions of dollars and integrity, I'll take integrity any day.

I truly believe what goes around comes around and I applaud you for writing this post and making public what a lot of people feel but who aren't often heard because their circles are so much smaller.

For what it's worth; I've got your back even if you get snubbed by those "other marketers".

P.S. I also thought you might find it interesting to know that a copywriter I follow stated he was at a seminar and overheard one "guru" tell another "guru" the following: "I don't care what you tell 'em just sell 'em (expletive goes here)". Disgusting.

Here, Here. If the internet marketers don't start policing themselves and stop this 'pie-in-the-sky' routine, they will drive themselves out. Social Networking is going to cut them down and unfortunately, along with them, a lot of good & fair IMs' as well. Such a shame.
Way to go Joel. Keep up the good stuff!

Joel, you are one hundred percent right in your thinking.
Id'mm one of those poor smucks who has spent a bundle of money(I do not really have) on these ebooks, classes, coaching that or the same 1,2,3.
They get you no where, they teach you nothing new. They do not carry you for enough for comprehension.
New material might be refreshing. Maybe they have reached the apex of the ability to further knowledge on the computer.
What would be the only useful training would be one on one,but who can afford that in this economy your nickels and dimes maybe your last.

Hi Joel...

Thanks for speaking out on this trend.

I am on a couple of the Guru's mailing list, just to see what they are up too. And as soon as one of these products start getting promoted. I get bombarded with $1-$2 grand products. It's funny....they already make a good living from IM....and then they want more from their list.

I just chuckle, as I delete the email.

Hi Joel,

Great post and I'm glad to see someone of your stature writing it. I appreciate the fact that you don't promote the big launches for the sake of money and I would love to see some other marketers do the same, unfortunately I don't think that will happen.

Quick story to drive your point home about expectations and the effects of manipulation.

I happen to know someone that works for one of the top "gurus" in the make money niche and was able to get into a workshop that was held in Vegas in June of last year. I was going on vacation anyway so I went. I don't buy any $2000 courses but I was interested to see if the hype surrounding live events was true. I guess the answer to that is, depends on the live event.

One thing was very clear, there were people there who spent $2000 and had no idea what to do with the information or even what the product actually did for them. The marketer and his staff realized this and to their credit set up a smaller room for those people. I volunteered to help out too because staff was way outnumbered by those who needed one on one help. I spent about 2 hours with a woman who had no idea what she was doing. She should never have bought the product and to be honest I'm not sure she was cut out to make money using her computer. Maybe with a lot of one on one honest tutoring. When I took the time to explain to her what this product was all about and that you needed some technical knowledge to use it, she said to me, "Oh my, I just wanted something easy to make money with. I thought I would just be able to click a couple buttons and make some money". It was actually very sad and it's difficult for me to convey her emotional state here.

She then went on to tell me that he had a sick husband at home and that her credit cards were maxed out and that it was even possible that they would soon lose the house. She admitted to me that the reason for all this was the amount of money she had spent on courses to make money online. In excess of $50,000. When I heard all this I wanted to cry I really did. There was no way in hell this poor woman was going to make a dime online and she just found out that the $2000 she spent to get to Vegas (Aside from travel expenses)was a complete and total waste. All of this because of the powerful sales process, the awesome sounding products with incredible income potential, and easy as clicking a couple of buttons.

Marketers need to take some responsibility for the lives they destroy with empty promises and products that don't do anything but put money in their greedy pockets.

Joel I really do respect that you don't promote these launches I wish more would follow your example.

Joel,

What a surprising post from a world recognized guru. I'm impressed at your candor, and have also posted during my 30 days of TOTALLY free content about this topic a little as well at http://imgroundzero.com/.

I can play devils advocate though, and ask how much of what is being done online to make money in the "make money online" or IM niche can be original at this point anyway.

We can look at CPA, Adsense, PPC, PPV, media buying, CPM advertising, etc... and in virtually every niche someone is selling something to teach people how to make money online. They've been faking and tweaking sales statistics for at least 10 years with various photoshop, or javascript techniques, and in the end you are right - it seems all the money gets made by selling the products as opposed to doing the work.

Is this a new trend you just discovered Joel?

I guess the devils advocate question really comes down to ...

What is left to explore for options to actually make money online without selling a product?

I know you'll say other niches where you can actually provide value to your customers. I love your post, and it's dead on the money, but something tells me various other gurus are currently gathered around a table discussing the mob mentality they've been creating in the IM niche for years. They will never forget that people like to buy things, and that IM niche product seekers ALWAYS want the magic bullet.

I've heard an unnamed dude with the initials MF postulate the theory that what is offered in these products satisfies the real need of the prospects in that it fuels their imagination, and let's them part with their hard earned money.

Do you not agree that those are the goals of IM prospects? I don't agree with him, but what a spin.

Great post Joel!

Joel, I've followed you since the AdSense book. I never made real money on the Internet but it was because I was too busy or just plain lazy to implement. But merely implementing is not going to be a smooth ride either. I no longer purchase much of anything anymore because there really aren't that many qualified people out there to teach it. The gurus aren't really making that much money - there's one guy who has infiltrated JV Alert who is a real scam artist, there's the person who flaunts the fact of living in a motor home but recently sent out emails begging us to buy product so they can afford the $30k down payment on a new mobile home, there's the person who travels overseas all the time yet lives in Long Beach California (anyone been there lately?), there's the ex military guy who brags about Mind Control and who has retired more than once LOL, and the list goes on and on...and the sad thing is that NONE of these people know ANYTHING about instructional design which is HOW TO WRITE A PRODUCT THAT WILL TEACH ADULTS!!!! I've spent so much time lately unsubscribing from all these lists so that I can get my email inbox under control. But the sad part is that a lot of these people, even the ones I talked about earlier are actually nice, intelligent people as I've met most of them. They just don't know what else to do or take out of their hat to get their reader's attention. Maybe if you love your J.O.B or at least like the work you do, you're better off staying put and at least living a normal, planned life with a planned paycheck - not everyone is going to get rich - plain and simple. Thanks for staying REAL

Hey Joel,

Thanks for confirming what I was thinking about rehashed products. I am enjoying your new book Ka-Ching and thanks for the bonuses. I have not come across many products at $1995 or even $995 but I do see a lot of cheaper products that claim to make you money in 5 days or 7 days or some other number of days, and whilst you say "However, it is essential that people understand there is no get rich quick method!" you do sometimes promote these products as an affiliate.

I think you and your peers should not promote products that make these claims unless you have seen they work for yourselves. My other pet hate is upsells like the expensive mobile monopoly upsells,(cheap product expensive with upsells) I did not yet purchase this product but when I clicked the "affiliates" tab at the bottom of the page I was dissapointed at how Adam talked about how much money you could make as an affiliate on the upsells.

I thought to myself, I was almost a customer then I listened to how this guy was trying to upsell an automatic program, tie me in to monthly payments without forewarning me or anyone else out there. I think the buying public should be told by responsible marketeers if there is another product available ie: the upsell.

Anyway now I have got that off my chest, I love your blog, tweets and fan page. I have read adsense secrets 4 which you did give away free and I am reading, enjoying and learning from your new book Ka-Ching.

I am also going to make time to watch your interview with your mum, I have heard you mention her before in a webinar before, I think she is a real inspiration to all new bloggers etc. even if she may have got a little help. Good on You, Joel.

Anyway Thanks for reading,

Best Regards,

Noel.

Very well put Joel;

Regardless of what business any of us are in, I, personally, would much rather be known for truth, honesty, hard work, and helping others than any other trait.
I would rather team up and promote a good cause such as helping raise money for a NICU ward, the Boys and Girls Club, Fund Raisers for our schools or help with the Salvation Army.
Possibly, if these other IM would do the same, maybe, just maybe, they would see how the Jones really cannot afford the price tag for one, for another, how people really want and need to believe.
I have many of your products therefore I can say, you do not teach get rich quick. It's all knees and elbows and I am thankfuly for that because, that puts you in the short list of who I refer people to for education and I do it because they can learn from you providing they do the work.

Bravo.

Every once in awhile I will subscribe to someone's list because they were offering some free tool or course or what not. I would say 99.99% of the time they immediately start bombarding me with new launches and products, most of which they have absolutely no knowledge about other than what they pick up on the sales page. I will let a few go, especially if whatever they are pushing even remotely resembles whatever *their* own offering is. But, if they consistently hawk "the latest and greatest" miracle product, and it does nothing to enhance *their* offering, the subscription hits the unsubscribe bin pretty quick.

Of the hundreds (thousands?) of lists I have subscribed to over the years, only about 10 remain in good standing according to my standards.

Continue doing good things, Joel :)

I just turn my back on all of the hype that is on the internet. Like you said Joel, if it is so easy to get rich quick on the web, then the promoters would be GRQ without telling a sole!

I have been working to build a business on the web for the past year and a half and it is a lot of work with very little return to start. I hope that in the future with continued work, there will be some decent return. I don't expect the hard/smart work to ever stop.

Oh come on Joel. Dont act so surprised when people like Jay Abraham and Dan Kennedy. As well as, Many of the other gurus to the gurus have been saying to charge out-landish amounts for years. You are guilty, if not directly then by association, to many of the people that are doing this. Granted you are not covered in 'slime' like some of them. But, can you really say you are truly innocent of the "get-rich-quick-on-the-internet" promotions ? I will agree you have not charged as much for re-hash as others. Still, how is this not another angle? Call them out before you get called out? Salty Droid lumps you in with the JV incestuousness. How are you really different esp. when you have cross promoted many of these "over-chargers" in the past ?

Joel,
Great post but what should the amount of money be to attract affiliates. I have tried split testing the same offer with and without bonuses in a number of niches and the ones with bonuses did well and the ones without zero. Ideas??

I've long maintained that position as well, which is one reason I did a low-cost internet marketing seminar years ago, as a no pitchfest event (vs the "charge $2k for a ripoff seminar and have gurus pitch bs to the herd). My colleagues have posted similar feelings on many occasions as well.

As someone who's made it "the hard way" with few affiliates, for 10+ years, I can say the old fashioned honest "deliver value first, earn the sale" approach to building a business is the way to go. Anything else is seen as transparent, eventually, by the market -- and reputation is one's lifeblood. Karma and longterm success is important.

The question I ask of myself is always, "what am I known for"? and if that means I'm strict and require honesty and delivering solid content vs the hype and bs, that's the right way to do things.

anyways good post Joel, and good books etc too -- keep up the solid work.

-k

Great post Joel, this is one of the many reasons why you are my mentor.

Your a class act, from top to bottom !!!

thank joel i am agree with your point.i am really appreciate your stand. but not all people think like you who are already make noney. Personally i am really hate when people sell something which same to each others esp make money ebook.

And there need be no more said about that. You said it all. Good for you Joel!

Hi Joel
I recently purchased your book KaChing and I have to say the good old book by far in many cases better than any Info Products out there. Some Products I have bought are in the $ 7, $17, to $77 ranges some good some with the same thing over and over again, and for anybody who has bought 10 or 20 products on any subject can put together a program with some good logic that can scratch those $2000 ones. For one I enjoy the book and all thumbs up for the good work and good offer. And for two having had my own bread bakery I agree with the tradition that I kept, and that was, what I don't eat I don't sell. And with that being said, I have been working for over one year to start my online business and think everybody who is interested in doing business should follow your aproach do good stuff.
Thanks Joel for kind a telling it the way you said it in your Blog and you are doing what you're writing do good stuff Thanks!
Juergen

Hi Joel,
Kid you not , in the last few weeks the thought has entered my mind if I am the one doing something wrong? Is it really that easy to make money online by the thousands overnight? What is it that Im missing? It is really refreshing to see someone with a heavyweight IM stature like yourself to be saying this.

A sucker is born every minute. I buy all the products and get my refund in one week. If there is no money back guarantee, I don't buy. It's that simple. If people are financially challenged, no body can help them. To make money, one needs to be financially savvy.

Thanks for speaking out on this Joel. I agree wholeheartedly and am in the process of writing an ebook on this very subject in fact. There are far too many marketers who don't get that it's about creating value for others and helping and not just making a buck.

As you said, a lot of folks selling online these days think about themselves and how much they can make and little else. If they only knew.. there's nothing in the world like the feeling you get when you help someone else to enrich themselves and live a better life. And the cool part is that it comes back to you multiplied many times over.
Cheers
John

Hi Joel,

As always you are right on target. You have always shown the greatest of interity and willing to standup and take a positive position. There is entirely to much hype and trying to sell the latest and greatest.
You have a lot more credibility with me and probably most of your readers. Continue to provide the truth and expertise. That is why I have been following you for over 5 years.

Thanks Joel. I have been seeing this trend for a while and it suits me because I have been getting so much for free that I don't need to buy anything. Why would I? If I wait long enough it will be given away by someone. I am not tempted to buy anything. All I see is the same old thing or something old promoted as new, or something dodgy promoted as new.....
I get multiple emails with the same offers and the exact same methods used to promote. First the time sensitive offer, then the cheaper and more time sensitive offer and it can go down three levels until you are offered the same product for $7 that you were originally offered for $49. It makes me cynical indeed.
I like your posts and I think one on one training with someone like you is the only way to get any real benefit.
Thanks for being so upfront. I only have a small readership on my blog but I will give them your link. You provide good information.

I'm glad to read this post. As a newbie, I sometimes fell into dilemma with situations like you've mentioned - do this or else you will get less, others will beat you, etc... but it doesn't feel right. I just don't think that the 'more' is worth all the guilt and bad feeling after. Thanks, Joel

hmmm...I'll take the opposite view on this one. Just recently I purchased a program called the mlm launch formula. I purchased it from an affiliate site. It was simply the best course on internet marketing I have ever done, and the affiliate bonus offer was also very enlightening.

I'm not a newbie to the industry, I've already received several million dollars in commission through the business opportunity I'm involved with, but that was through the same process frowned on by most online gurus, that's right, I got out there and actually talked to real people. What I was looking for was an online approach that was a little different, after all, to succeed online you need a unique selling proposition, not just a business opportunity.

So "don't throw out the baby with the bathwater". There are some very worthwhile courses out there if you just do your homework first.

Very good post Joel, I fully agree with you in all what you're sharing. I am trying to be as protective as I can possibly be from bringing scoundrels to the Middle East as I don't want the negative trends to affect that market. I don't know if I will succeed or not but obviously knowing people like you and being agreement in these critical points always help. Thanks for voicing out these issues
Ernesto

Rather refreshing comments.These internet business models that I have been chasing are either scams or made so difficult to follow that you give up after a few days. I think as with everthing there is some good in this industry but I have yet to find them. Just a suggestion show me a business model that I can actually learn don't need to get rich but really does make me some money. Set it up for me and costs me 40.00 dollars per month Will be waiting for your reply

I hate the bonus wars, especially the effect it can have on smaller affiliates, even if you make the sale.

Imagine you make a sale for a high end product that has a subscription.

A few weeks later that product is offered as a bonus for someth...ing else, including for those that have just purchased the product.

As an affiliate you no longer get paid, yet may still be liable for the bonus you offered, because the person who signed up is still a member.

The product owner still gets paid because they will be paid for the affiliate promotion eventually. They have effectively outsourced their receivables and possibly lengthened the stick rate to at least 1 month past the free period, plus possibly enhanced their cashflow.

The small affiliate has provided a high end customer and has no money to show for it, just liabilities.

This actually happened to me.

The most annoying thing about this is I have had a solution worked out for this for 4 years but just haven't been able to get it funded as it is potentially too complex an issue to present in simple terms to investors.

Dear Joel,
Thanks for talking about internet marketing honestly. I am someone who is very interested in learning about how to make a living online and I would like to do that in an ethical manner. I have observed how those who are successful work and I see the same dedication that it takes to be successful in any field. Unfortunately a lot of people who are either desperate or lazy don't have the time or don't want to take the effort to pursue their career the only way that leads to true success. Others are aware of that attitude and are capatalizing on it. I can't tell you how many offers I have received. I have gotten scammed once but have learned what to look for and to carefully check reviews. Even reviews are dishonest as one affiliate lies about another product that he is not promoting. I think it is possible to be honest and to promote worthwhile products that a person has true experience with and be successful. You are an example of that and there some others that also are. Please continue to be a beacon for those who wish to do the same.

Well said. Since the days of adam and eve, there were folks who wouldnt waste a mini second to cheat, lie, scam, cajole, hoodwink etc..

my apologies....nobullshitagent.com is not ready.

Bless all.

Thanks Joel.

I'm so glad that you spoke out. I wrote yesterday to a person who launched the next product, promoting scarcity of only 200 copies and in the affiliate area providing the data how much could get made, totally clear that their will be several times 200 copies to be sold.

We arrived at a point where one hardly can believe anything in our IM world. Which is such a shame. Trust lost its values on a lot of corners in the IM world. I'm not yet successful but I know my real problem is that I want to select only an ethical way to move on and often find untruth. If it is the white teeth with the help of photoshop, the false reports or, or or.

Thanks again.

I would like to ask you a question. What do you recommend as the fastest way for somebody to start to make money on the Internet?

Best.. D

Some of what I have written has been taken out of the intended context by a few commenters. I'm just back from vacation and am getting ready to leave for another event, but I will post a follow up to this article and provide greater clarity on the points I am trying to make.

THANK YOU!!! I have to say that reading this post was a refreshing confirmation for me. I have sorta been ostracized because I won't treat people like dollar bills. They aren't!

They are people and like you said in this economy many of them are hurting. I know that for myself because I am there and crawling my way out of the financial hole by revamping my business and paying attention to the needs to my niche.

I am so turned off my many big name folks because of the fact that they seem so money hungry and I listen to person after person say how they spent money on a product they learn nothing from. It is usually the $1997 price your mentioned.

I could write a book but I won't. I will say that I am thrilled to read this from you Joel because I know of your stellar reputation and reading this post just confirms it.

I recently wrote my first How To Guide and someone said that I was charging to low. My comment to them is that I want to help the folks who cannot afford the $1997 product, desire to grow their business online but have no online marketing experience. I just want to help not take advantage!

You raise some good points. I am tired of receiving an offer for a get rich scheme from 5 or 6 different people, all with their endorsements and pretty worthless free bonus offers

A lot of the IM niche is simply an elaborate pyramid scheme.

Someone puts together a 'Make Money Online' product having never made any money online (apart from selling that product) and therefore the only way the readers can really make money is by repacking the info and selling their own make money product.

They will never actually make money outside of that niche.

They might as well be selling a one page ebook saying 'sell this on to another 100 people and that is how you make money online'.

My advice for the newcomers to the industry. If you're buying a product, buy something that focuses on a specific area and make sure the author can prove he/she is an expert. The general 'Make Money Online' guys who prove their worth with paypal screenshots are simply showing you previous sales of the 'Make Money Online' product 99% of the time.

It should be common sense, but if the offer sounds too good. It usually is.

Fair post Joel and good luck with your new lower pricing strategies! ;)

great post man, for me i have been skiptical geting ebooks online with such amount of money, reason been that almost the the whole product are thesame. i just want your colleagues to understand that whenever someone get a product and the information is helpful,it will be a great honour on his part.

The "I make money by teaching others how to make money" is not a new concept, it has been around for a long time. What is relatively new is the internet as a sales medium.

Saturation where there is opportunity is inevitable, but if you take a look of some of the greatest marketers throughout history, their consistent delivery of enormous amounts of value (and entertainment) has led to their long term success. Not selling get rich quick schemes.

I don't see this trend declining any time soon, but it's good that there are others with integrity who refuse to be a part of it and speak out against it.

With this said, i'd like to indroduce you to my new system "How To Make Incredible Amounts Of Money Online, WITHOUT Teaching Others How To Make Money Online".

Get it today for only $1,995.

Hi Joel

I want to Thank You for pointing this out. You stand for honesty and integrity and that is great on your part. Being enlightened with your article I did send it on to my followers especially for the new people so that they start their Internet careers doing things the right way.

Thanks Again
John

12 August 2010
Thursday
9:20PM

Hello Joel! This is the first time I have made about you
or any of your products. This is over a three year period.

Integrity comes to mind anytime I see an email from you.
Eben is another, though he helps other high scale marketers
hawk an onslaught of products.

Why are so many Stomper Marketers, Frank Corn dogs,
How Wee Swaarz hawking several programs a day at
loyal customers.

It's as though they don't give a damn or want to see their
product succeed. I decided to unsubscribe to many.

What an insult to keep offering product after product
of the same rehashed SEO, Get #1 ranking on Google
with this simple method program.

There are no Gods. Some of the presentations are
downright exceptional. But, then again rehashed
BS.

Your blogs have been enlightening. A great deal
of useful content. Thanks!

Opt out! Don't take the insults of trying to be part
of some sick, slick car salesman/emarketer that
just sold you $1995 worth of material and next
month/week is trying to hawk a joint venture partner's
junk to you for an equal price $$$$$ ! ! !

Unsubscribe! Do what you (internet marketers) do best.
Present your product, present useful and continuous
content, build your brand.

And we are head into an app environment via our
iPads and smart phones.

Appreciate your honesty Joel.

vanquincy@JoelisHonest.com

Just being facetious!

I want to Thank You for pointing this out.It giving whole new concept to reduce new price that will make my services sold

Hi Joel,

I think your post is spot on. These things need to be said and I am glad someone at your level is saying them.

However, aren't you also part of Tony Robbins business coaching program that costs like $30,000 for the seminar - seems like he is also charging more than he needs to...

Another marketer I have found is Curtis Andrew. After joining up with him, I have pretty much deleted all my other crap. He doesn't send you lame offer after lame offer like most of these other guys do. He's a true leader. He has a world class training program at http://internetincomeacademy.com

Cheers!

Joel,

Let me first say I like you. You are the 1st internet marketer I liked but haven't met.Your presence in those early Adsesne videos shines through.

I fully understand your disappointment with the state of the market place, however I completely disagree with a vast amount of point in your post.

The market is the way it is because that is what the "public" want. If they did not want it then there would not be any of it. It is basic demand versus supply. Do I agree it is right? No, but that is life. 50,000 people die EVERY day in Africa from preventable diseases but does that stop anyone going about their day?

Very few people are lucky enough to have the knowledge or expertise or even wisdom to create something 100% new let alone be able to bring it to the market place.

If I spend 6 months or a year of my life on something that is not new; researching,learning, testing, researching more and testing till I can not test any more it does not mean it is worthless. What I am selling is my knowledge, time, understanding, avoiding the mistakes and PROVEN results all condensed in to a product.

How much is that worth?

Well for a start time is priceless!

How much would the "average" person waste knowing the right places to look,doing all the steps, making the mistakes and the all important researching? From my experiences "Joel Bloggs" would take 3 years to construct and implement what I have learned and spend a lot more money, so it is my prerogative to charge what the market will pay.

It is all time versus money.If you want to save 3 years being in the wilderness it is going to cost you $1997!

SIMPLE.

At the end of the day people buy products all the time no matter how much they cost then do nothing with them. On average only 10% of people will use the products they buy. The rest do not even bother with returning the product for a refund! Why defend them? They are showing little or no respect to the effort someone has put in.

Joel, let us get real for a moment. I would love to create a million dollar product and give it away for FREE and it is actually one of my goals. However if I create this wonderful free product and go to my list of JVs saying "Hey guys, got this million dollar product for you, it's totally excellent! Oh and it is for FREE!"

They are hardly going to be jumping for joy. The would be giving me their entire list which they have worked hard for and with nothing in return. Result: No one gets the product.

Now use the same situation but this time the JVs get $1,000. Remember this product is worth a million dollars so asking $1997 is more then a bargain. Result: You sell 10,000 units which in feel good factor terms means you have created 100 millionaires! (10% of the 10,000 people actually use the product).

If I was in your position Joel and had the opportunity to make a "ballpark (figure) of $50,000-$100,000 in commissions" I would take it rather then complaining at the state of the market. I would use that money to help people who need it, like the people dying in Africa rather than spend my energy and time writing a blog in an attempt to "save" people from buying $1997 products that are not up to scratch. ( I would like to note I am 100% sure Joel Comm already contributes greatly to charity and a wealth of good causes.)

Regards,

Jamus McKenna

Excellent post! I suppose someone will soon title a product "How to Make Money-Telling People How to Make Money."

It's so obvious that many of these marketers have teamed together.

Joel, I am grateful to you for your book on making money with Adsense. It literally has impacted my income in a great way.

Joel - Great post. I especially appreciate the personal information you've included (about being approached to participate in 5 product launches) -- it gives some real traction to your public position.

Ryan

P.S. I found this post through Michel Fortin's post "A Disturbing Trend in Internet Marketing."

Boo to the bonus wars.
Boo to overpriced crap.
Boo to IM products where the salespage doesn't even tell you anything about what the product is actually about- just emotive promises that it will make you an overnight millionaire.
Honesty and Integrity rule.

You Go Joel-very valid points.
larry

Hi joel, I agree totally that there is a lot of overpriced nonsense out there in the realm of internet marketing & on my own site i have only tried to include products that people will find usefull, Plus at the low price of £7 for most of my products i feel i am offering value for money.

I got to see you at the o2 arena in london after having been invited by Andrew Reynolds who's buisness model i am currently studying and currently testing publications to place my ads but as of yet i haven't seemed to find the right one, even my news of the world ad didn't seem to raise any interest and that reached over 8 million copies sold, ????

What i have found myself doing though, & you are my inspiration on this, is i am not promoting so much internet marketing products but am focusing on promoting the making & selling of iphone apps, one particular product by steve jobs who i beleive you know, (free the apps) (thinking drone) as well as the app development guide they are giving away the source code for a live application plus a non disclosure agreement for people to use when they approach a programmer.
This product represents good value for money in todays finacial climate & is priced at an unbelievable figure you'd be crazy not to take the offer.

Thanks for the insight into the industry joel, you are truly unique amongst internet marketers & i hope to see you again one day. All the best!!

There is a furious battle raging. It is fueled by the need for greed. And, to the victor go the spoils. What's really at stake within this present day Internet Marketing Mania? Simply... trillions of dollars, and billions of lives.

Within five years there will be around two billion human beings, online and interacting.

We are nearly at 1.5 billion today! That's a huge potential market just waiting to be grabbed! It's an absolute opportunistic feeding frenzy; a crusade for POWER. Believe me when I say, that 'those in the know', have already been working very hard, behind the scenes, recruiting every Internet newbie soul that is willing to sell their soul, for the God Almighty Dollar!

Thousands of mindless minions are being unsuspectingly recruited even as you read these words. Millions of subscriber lists have already been accumulated. The War has begun-you were just too distracted to see it happening. Or, to see it coming straight for you!

They know how to get you to do things. They know how to make you decide to go with them. They know how to create a dream for you to share and believe in. They know how to give you everything you have ever wanted. You're getting sleepier and sleepier, listen to my words, listen only to my words....

By first 'hyping' almost every benefit or feature of a product or service, the skilled Internet marketeer creates an intended desire. With compelling emotional copy that uses already proven to work hypnotic'(suggestive) key words and phrases, they then dive in and go for your jugular, and close the sale.

How many ways can someone, a deceptively devious marketeer for example, trigger a reaction within you to 'buy'? Well, is there a limit to your imagination?

What exactly do I mean by 'hyping'? Does it imply or connote misrepresentation? It can, and usually does; even if in some small way. Is it exaggerating? Of course it is! Do you get what they claim? In most cases...NO!

Yes, yes, there are many honest, ethical and considerate marketers out there, but the bottom line is still and will always be the bottom line...money. I don't know if you've noticed lately, but MONEY, and the pursuit of it, has a funny way of changing people.

And, strangely enough, if you deliberately bypass an individuals' innate desires and needs, and trigger instead an emotional reaction, what you get, is an emotionally responsive sale. This elevated emotional state usually does not last. The euphoria soon wears off, and the unsuspecting customer drifts back to earth, uncomfortably aware of their newly purchased possession.

Despite 'buyer’s remorse', most refunds and returns through-out the industry are well below 10%. Unfortunately, most people that purchase these products instead of doing something with their new and unexpected toy, they let it sit, and sit, idly by, and then, do something else, entirely different.

In other words, they didn't use it! They didn't benefit from it, regardless of its many 'hyped' and emotionally charged features. The mood is gone. They can now become easily distracted, once again, by entirely something else, which just 'happens' to trigger an emotional response within them.

Do you see where I am going with this? Who do we blame, the unsuspecting consumer, you, innocently searching for a solution to your problem or condition? Or, the diabolically devious marketeer, armed to the teeth with an arsenal of tricks, techniques, and strategies, that have been designed to wear you down, to deliberately by-pass your true innate desires; and then, to trigger an automatic urge within you, an irresistibly compelling impulse...to buy, buy, buy?

It's not easy to say no! Especially, when they've whipped you up to a frenzy, wanting this product so bad that you can taste it. They even know the right colors to use that soothe or excite, while eliciting a greater, a much greater response rate from you. They also know the exact words, 'hypnotic' key words and phrases, equally designed and proven effective, to get you to want, to only want, what they have to offer. Subliminally seductive, and completely under your radar!

Everything you see, read, and hear on that landing page or website, has all been put together because they work; they get you into a fixed state, where you are receptive and ready to be told what to do next. They've even named it, a “call to action”. This is where you are not asked, but told, to buy their product, and buy it NOW-and usually, before it's too late! At this point, you automatically do what you're told.

Congratulations, you're now a proud new owner of....

With sleight of hand precision they deal you a card from the bottom of the deck. You think you have a chance, you hope you have a chance...for more money, and a better life. But, the deck is stacked, and the deal is dirty. How can you really ever hope to win?

The answer is truly simple. Don't play into their game! Don't play. Hey, but Life is a Game you say, and you need to play something. Well then, I say, play something else instead.

Play something you can truthfully and willingly win at. Without being artificially and emotionally charged into buying something you really don't need or want; or will ever likely use and benefit from.

But, before you can have this truth, you must first recognize and realize what exactly is wrong with this kind of mindless marketing control, and how it just ends up betraying you, and everyone else that's fallen prey to it instead....

If you pay attention, you can truly find out: Who's really in control? Who wants to gain control, and most importantly, how you can protect yourself and your family from this Internet Marketing Mayhem.

Unconsciously, you are being controlled, mindlessly manipulated, and played like a Stradivarius. You owe it to yourself to take a stand. You owe it to yourself to see other ways of getting what you want without getting hurt yourself; and, or hurting other people in the process.

Unscrupulous and deceptively devious marketing practices and practitioners do harm the individual, as well as society. They must be recognized for who they are, and stopped!

Trust your instincts; find out the truth for yourself. Don't continue to be distracted and deluged with promises, offers, and riches beyond your grasp. Come back to reality. Learn to see life as it is!

Interesting points made about how internet marketing has gone south... Seems like the MO of the top marketers is to overpromise and underdeliver and repeat the process over and over again...

Great article, and well put, Joel.

I've always appreciated your honesty and being out in front of the trends before they even begin.

Since I've followed you - starting at least 4 years ago - you've been out in front of several different areas that ultimately became, and still are, huge.

One being video usage in sales letters and other facets of IM, and two - Twitter. You were one of the first, or perhaps, the first, instructor that I recall who wrote an eBook on what Twitter was, how to use it, and how big it would become. This was way before most people had ever heard of Twitter.

I also remember reading an email of yours several years ago preaching how video was going to soon be the dominant media platform in marketing online. It's clear you were right about both!

I have a comment first, then a question:

I just recently came across the whole Syndicate thing and Salty Droid. I guess Im a little late to the party. However, I always came close to buying some of their $2000 products. But I never did, mainly because the prices were what I thought were way too high.

I have bought two of your products in the past, one was Adsense Secrets(unbelievably informative for I think $97) and another I cant recall off top of my head.

One thing that always turned me off was every time one of the big IM launches came out, I'd get affiliate emails from them all, promoting the same launch. So, I always thought to myself: "don't these guys make money by employing the strategies they teach, or do they just make cash from affiliate commissions on each others products?

To this day, I still wonder. I suppose they have internet businesses other than selling IM info products, most say they do, but I wonder.

Nothing more phony than a guy who has never succeeded at what he's charging money to teach you.

Ok, that's my comment, now for the question...

Since I've never bought any of their "legendary" products (ie. Stompernet, Mass Control, PLF, et al) - Are any of these products actually worth the money? I mean, are they good? Do they render the education they claim to? Or is it just rehashed crap wrapped up in a pretty box with a lot of "social" proof.

All of those guys, for the most part, seem to know what they're talking about. And their sales letters, videos, emails, etc. always appear to be pretty high quality productions.

Like to know your thoughts, or anyone else who's been a customer of the "Syndicate".

Thanks for being real Joel...

Best & be blessed,
Jim

"People need real solutions, not another course on making money online from someone who has only made money online selling courses on how to make money online." This point is so true Joel. But the thing is, as long as there are still good money to be made from peddling such products, there will continue to be many more such self-proclaimed gurus pushing their magic-button-get-rich-quick kind of products to unsuspecting newbies. And the way I see it, this is a problem that will be here to stay. Now only if there are more gurus like you who go about educating people on how to be more discerning and to identify quality solutions.

Dear Joel,

Again, nice article covering guidelines on proper marketing ethics. I have read all 3 inter related articles, inclusive of "The Dark Side of Internet Marketing" and "The Long Form Sales Letter. I think, true intention to provide valuable service to the customers should be the key value for everyone involved in marketing. This is key item that I am learning from your 3 articles.

Have a nice day.
Regards,
Devan

Totally agreed to your analysis - if this so-called experts are making that much of a million then they should not be in the business of selling ridiculous packages or softwares, which many do not even work properly! Shame on these guys...

Oh I agree with the statement no one gets rich quick method. Just as the write ups says that we get rich overnight? It's not true, you have to work on it just like the others because if it's true, I know they wouldn't share it with everybody.

Have to agree with Joel, I feel that there are alot of people out there that think just by building a website or two "they'll make million of dollars". Unfortunately this isn't the case for 99.9% of us.